Can we just leave it alone?

[KoshN]

Originally posted by tvih
In my opinion S5 ends B5 better than stopping with S4+SiL ever would have

True, plus I wouldn't want to miss out on that Centauri arc, Lyta toying with that assassin, or the episode that showed the station changing hands (going to the 2nd crew (Lochley, Vir, Ta'Lon, Dr. Hobbes, etc.) and the salute as Sheridan and Delenn were leaving. There was some great stuff in Season 5.

[Ranger1]

Originally posted by tvih
Now that's contradictory. How can you not want to miss S5 and still want B5 to end with S4?

The same way as i found LotR to be a sucky movie,but i would never even thought about not seeing it,and not beeing a part of the B5 universe.

[Aaron]

I know I'm coming into this thread late, but I too feel the need the
defend S5 and Crusade.

When S5 originally ran, I was disappointed alittle bit. While I
liked the episodes that played with perspective, it felt like some of
the air had left the story--at least until Sleeping in Light. Except
for SiL, I did not see it again until I bought the DVDs (I kept SiL
on tape and pulled it out every now and then).

Now that I'm a few years older and my entertainment tastes are more
seasoned, I appreciate it alot more. It is probably the most mature
season of B5. I like it for the play on perspective to the sober tone
of the last third of the season. Even the telepath story serves a
purpose. I still bawl every time I see SiL. Still, it would have
been nice if the last two seasons would have played out as they were
meant to. S4 felt very rushed.

As far as Crusade, well, anyone who was head-over-heels in love with
Babylon 5 after the first 13 episodes raise their hand.

[Jump Now]

I know what Aaron means - that B5 also took a little while to maybe find its feet, or/and the real story took at least that long to really kick in - and I think he's right. But I also have to say that - maybe because we'd already had 5 years of the best programme ever made, and I trusted JMS to do something "special" every time - I loved Crusade from the beginning.

So it was messed about, especially in the 1st aired episode... but I adored it. And when I heard, several episodes into the run, that it was already gone, it was awful. To me, it's the greatest loss TV has suffered. And I feel confident saying that, as soon as I consider that we only got approx. one tenth of the story (and the writing, and the characters, and the actors...), and so much potential lost. I mean, I'm a huge Doctor Who fan too - but I'd easily swap the upcoming revival of that show for Crusade to come back. To be honest, there's 26 years of TV 'Who (plus endless audios, books etc. which are still continuing), whereas Crusade barely got out of the starting block.

And season 5 of B5..? Well, there is always that nagging thing: It would have been fantastic if the 5 year plan had gone smoothly, and we'd had a few more episodes of the shadow war, a bit of a break (with stand-alones?) and a season which finished with "Intersections" as originally planned. It does feel a bit like the story has to restart again, with the beginning of the last season. But having said that, I agree with Aaron's sense that this then allowed room for some nice character / experimental stuff before the main story took over again. And in a way, it actually adds realism to the whole 5 year arc. Real life isn't paced sensibly. It's actually quite good that you get the conclusion to 2 wars in 1 year, then a gap where nothing like as big as those events happens for about 9 months in the B5 universe. It sort of makes the whole thing even more "real".

Besides, whatever disappointment there was at the time was tempered by the fact that JMS came up with "Deconstruction" as a way to close off season 4. For a start, a great episode - but bloody bloody clever too. I would never have come up with that in a million years. And after seeing that, and having previously been a bit miffed that outside forces had screwed with the 5 year plan, I knew everything would still be good in the upcoming season. And was just glad to be getting it at all, to be honest.

[hishamT]

Regardless of what is said about S5 the following were my favorates in that seaason

1. View from the gallary
2. Long night of Londo Molari
3. Day of the dead

And also the episods about the fall of centuri prime.

Even the Tragedy of a telepath was not that bad

regards

[Andoryu]

Originally posted by hishamT

Even the Tragedy of a telepath was not that bad

I totally agree, I never understand why everyone is so down on the telepath thing. To me what it did for Lyta was worth it, and i thouught Byron was an interesting character.

In my opinion there is just too much open ended stuff from all the seasons to just "leave it alone" and I think there are a ton of stories left to tell in the universe of B5. That is of course as Crusade proved/was proving.

My face has been blue for a long time with all the breaths Ive been holding for some new stories.

[WorkerCaste]

Originally posted by Andoryu
I totally agree, I never understand why everyone is so down on the telepath thing. To me what it did for Lyta was worth it, and i thouught Byron was an interesting character.

I liked S5, but thought the telepath story line was weak. I can't answer for others, but I can tell what I didn't like about it. There were several things, with the major ones being directly related to the absence of Ivanova if I understand JMS's original intent correctly.

First, I thought it was too removed from the main characters. It only tied to Lyta, who I see as a supporting character. That didn't provide a good enough in for me as a viewer. I couldn't identify as well with those characters. Also, Byron's similarities to Marcus were distracting. Having just lost a beloved character, seeing a wannabe took away from his impact. Now, it makes sense if the idea was for Ivanova to become involved on the rebound, but as a stand alone I think it interfered. Finally, the casting of Byron didn't work. I don't have anything against Robin Atkin Downes as an actor, I just didn't feel the words and the performance meshed well.

At any rate, that's my take on the telepaths for what it's worth.

[DGTWoodward]

Originally posted by Jump Now
Besides, whatever disappointment there was at the time was tempered by the fact that JMS came up with "Deconstruction" as a way to close off season 4. For a start, a great episode - but bloody bloody clever too. I would never have come up with that in a million years.

Too true. I am a part of the growing "thought that season 5 was pretty lifeless and (ulp!) DULL to begin with but now totally love it" brigade. Season 5 ROCKS!!!

Once agan JMS shows his brilliance with the pen by showing us glimpses of Garibaldi's future in "DECONSTRUCTION..." weeks, nay MONTHS before the actual episode was written. Just priceless.

As for season 5 'proper' episodes...Even the initially slow telepath thread ran much better this last time around. Of course the need for this short arc was necessary because JMS needed a self terminating thread to fill the first handful of eps, as these were originally to be filled with the Earth-War conclusion. When we reach the Centauri (arc-proper) story which more-or-less concludes the series, we are primed and ready for it and boy does JMS deliver!

Who can forget the sight of Londo alone on his throne? such a poignant moment, so well visualised.

Yes Season 5 rocks alright.

Our advice to any "still not so sure" types...watch the WHOLE show again from the beginning, 2 or three eps per night, right through to the end. Year 5 just slips in like a velvet glove!

[circularREASON]

I have to admit that S5 was already one of my faves.

[Satai Delenn]

Couldn't disagree more Babylon 5 has so much more potential than Star Wars or Trek if only WB would give it a chance .

[grumbler]

Originally posted by tvih
Even with SiL as the last episode, I think a lot of things would've been "missing". Too much would've been "left in the dark".
And Deconstruction of Falling Stars was an interesting episode on its own, wouldn't want to have missed that one either.

That just goes to show how different people react to things. I thought Deconstruction was one of the ten worst eps in the show- hastily written and woodenly acted by everyone but Jerry Doyle and Roy Brocksmith (the prior).

[grumbler]

As for Season 5, I thought it was a flawed success, but a success anyway. I thought A View from the Gallery was the kind of hokey crap that JMS would have rejected out of hand except fo the need to fill in Season 5 (yeah, I know the original idea was to do something along these lines during the Shadow War, and it might have worked then, but the dialogue, especially Sheridan and Delenn's scenes, was just bad. Bo and Mack deserved a better-written ep.

On the other hand, I though A Paragon of Animals was a near-perfect standalone type episode. There, the dialogue was what we expect from JMS. As a bonus, the Drazi finally get their comeupance. The telepath arc had its weaknesses (primarily caused by JMS being uncertain how to use the Lochley charactor, I think, as well as his decision to make Byron smug and smarmy without giving him any redeeming strengths or assets), but it worked out to a pretty exciting and satisfyingly ambiguous ending.

The Centauri part of the season was too short, but otherwise as good as anything in the show.

[Sherlock]

I've been reading posts on this board for a long time, and have finally decided to join.

My personal thoughts on season five are that it was decent, but a clear drop in quality from the previous four. In particular, I thought that whole "Byron" thing was cheesy and melodramatic. That "Remember Byron" stuff was just plain bad. He was like some Fabio wannabe.

The second half of year five was really pretty good, though. Overall I'm happy there was a fifth season. I got to watch it first on DVD, so I think it plays better that way than if you had to wait a week between episodes.

And my thoughts on A View from the Gallery is that it was pretty badly executed. I know it's a fan favorite, but if you're going to do an episode from the perspective of minor characters, you have to KEEP with that perspective. Too many scenes had the two maintenance guys in the background, at which point the viewer becomes a participant in the conversations of the main characters, completely ruining the effect of eavesdropping on the action of the episode. Star Trek TNG did it much better in their episode with the young crewmembers (I believe it was called Below Decks).

[tvih]

Originally posted by grumbler
That just goes to show how different people react to things. I thought Deconstruction was one of the ten worst eps in the show- hastily written and woodenly acted by everyone but Jerry Doyle and Roy Brocksmith (the prior).

Yeah well, Deconstruction wasn't a perfect episode. But it was a very interesting glimpse in the future of the B5 universe - the old Delenn and the "doubting Thomases", the human civil war and the "great burning"... and of course the "exodus" of the humans.

If one wants to look for flaws, one is the recreation of Garibaldi etc by "memory patterns". How exactly was this supposedly did? Apparently the "programs" had the skills, even memories etc of the originals. That just wouldn't be possible. It would be just "guesstimation". And for the purposes they were created, the creators wouldn't even needed such thought patterns, only the lookalike features.

But as with everything, overanalyzing is not always good. I mean if you think about it, so damn many similar humanoid races in the Milky Way in itself is a bit silly, but does it really matter? Not really.

Anyways I'm sidetracking a bit there, tends to happen So anyway, I'd very much rather having than not having that episode, even though if it isn't necessarily up to the standards of many other episodes.

For the telepath arc, well, it did feel a bit "detached". Ivanova's presence certainly would've made things more interesting, but for obvious reasons that was not possible Still, it's not bad, if not superb either.

Oh, and about A View From The Gallery. I enjoyed that episode quite a bit, but somehow it felt slightly too "detached" too. As grumbler said, it might've worked better during the Shadow war. Now the whole attack by that whatever race is totally detached from everything else. If you think about it, kinda like the movie "Thirdspace" - the actions in it don't really relate much to any other episode or such (or well, Thirdspace actually does sort of explain why Zack doesn't make a move for Lyta, so to speak). The things taking place in those episodes are never mentioned anywhere else. But well, I still liked both AVFTG and Thirdspace, and very much rather have 'em too than not have 'em.

[grumbler]

Some good points, tvih, but I honestly think The Deconstruction... would have worked better as a short story than an episode. There was absolutely nothing visual about the story at all (kind of understandable given the time constraints, but still...).

Since JMS already HAD the story of AVFTG written at that point (it was one of the script pushed back from the fourth to the fifth seasons) and it also was essentially non-visual, that would have made a better concluding ep for season 4, IMO, especially as it could then be told as a flashback. No Captain Lochley at that point, but frankly her charactor was entirely dispensible. Maybe the supporting actors were not available, and that is why JMS went with an essentially four-person show for Deconstruction.

If Deconstruction HAD been relegated to a short story, that would have opened an episode slot for the one story that needed to be told and was not - the story of the struggle between Londo and the Drakh. It would not cover the end of that struggle in 2278, just the start of it in 2262 (i.e contemporaneously). We would have a LOT more sympathy with the older Londo in WWE, ItB, and SiL if we had been able to see the fine line he had to walk between dangerous opposition and disgraceful acquiesence. Sure, that story is told in the CP trilogy, but how much more powerful would it have been if Peter were acting it on the set and not just in our heads?