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To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Spoilers!)

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  • #31
    ...Valen's soul being transferred to Sinclair's body, ie his birth. I always wondered who else has a Minbari soul?
    Ah, but did the triluminary detect a Minbari soul at all? It all seemed to me that all it detected was traces of Human DNA, it was just that the Minbari believed it was detecting Minbari souls out of not knowing exactly what the triluminaries were.

    Valeria instead of Valen
    Lennier's quickness to recognize Kosh as Valeria to me says that had Delenn's vision been of a Vorlon that she too would have recognized him as Valeria. If it was a Vorlon standing off to the side and projecting an image into her mind the way Kosh did with G'Kar in "Dust To Dust," that'd be one thing, but if there actually was a real being appearing before her, she would have thought it to be Valeria were they Vorlon.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by grumbler
      Yep. Google for "telemeres" and you should find the story, if google goes back seven years or so.

      It is basically tricking the body's cells into reproducing after they are programmed to stop doing so (so as to make us too decrepit to compete with our young for food and whatnot).
      Yep. Saw a special on The Science Channel three years ago.
      Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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      • #33
        What did Delenn see?

        Originally posted by vacantlook
        Lennier's quickness to recognize Kosh as Valeria to me says that had Delenn's vision been of a Vorlon that she too would have recognized him as Valeria. If it was a Vorlon standing off to the side and projecting an image into her mind the way Kosh did with G'Kar in "Dust To Dust," that'd be one thing, but if there actually was a real being appearing before her, she would have thought it to be Valeria were they Vorlon.

        That bring up another interesting question...we know Delenn saw Kosh outside of the encounter suit before undergoing the transformation. So, at this point we assumes she saw Valeria, and that's probably still true.

        However afterward, when Kosh went rescuing Sheridan, exactly what did she saw? It was probably still Valeria, but if she is now half-human, half-Minibari, exactly what would she see? I think it'd stll be Valeria (after all both Valeria and human 'angel' were both bald-head, with Valeria having the bone crest), but I wondered....

        Yes, I know the scene very strongly implied that Delenn saw Valeria along with Lennier, but it's not quite 100% conclusive....

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        • #34
          <<And Sinclair after he became Valen and was forced to flee Minbar for loving Sakai, and Sheridan for succombing to "alien influences" that left him unable to even stay loyal to earth ("And now for a word...")>>

          Thanks, grumbler. It was pretty obvious some factions on Earth were anti-alien and we saw this bigotry aimed right at Delenn. The "traitor" hooking up with her was obviously a no-no in their eyes. The Illusion of Truth pretty much covers this angle.
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

          Comment


          • #35
            In speculating about VAlen/Sinclair & Catherine being gifted with Immortality,
            I was also taking it as a given that the Price would be that they Work for the Vorlons.

            Just like "Jack".

            And Lyta.

            Immortality would also explain Why Valen had to leave Minbar.
            By the time he got to be 80 or 90 years old, people' would start to Notice.
            And he was too famous to just move across the street and get a fake ID.

            So, he and Catherine would "disappear".
            By the time they returned, everyone who knew them would be dead and they could just set up taking care of whatever the Vorlons needed done.

            Remember, being Seen by a large crowd exhausted Kosh so much that he had to spend a Week in his ship recovering.

            Plus, when Kosh & Ulkesh were living secretly aboard the Minbari Cruiser, they had to have supplies shipped in every Week.
            That was how Delenn found them.
            She figured out Who the supplies had to be for.

            Much easier to have agents who can just walk around unnoticed than to spend a Vorlon's time and energy.

            Plus, we don't know just How Many Vorlons there were.
            But, it's a Very Big Galaxy.
            Lots of Planets to go around.
            We only saw the races that were within easy travel distance from Babylon 5.

            The most likely thing is that the Vorlons planted agents on the worlds they were interested in and checked up on them periodically.

            After all, when you are supervising a Million Year project, with 10,000 year intervals between major Shadow Wars, you don't Need to Micro Manage the various races.

            The biggest problem most of the First Ones seemed to have with Immortality was Boredom.

            The Shadows went to Sleep when they weren't actively involved in a conflict.
            A nice little 1000 Year Nap.

            I've noticed a number of people posting the phrase "Beyond the Rim" as if it were a euphemism for Death.

            I never thought so: if you take "Beyond the Rim" literally, the First Ones are exploring the regions Outside our little galaxy.
            Even with Their ships, how long do you suppose it would take to reach the Next Galaxy over?
            Or the one beyond THAT?

            The First Ones went looking for places they hadn't already seen 10,000 Times before.
            The Ultimate Tourists.
            Looking for the Cosmic Disney Planet.

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            • #36
              More thoughts on this:

              Remember Lyta's time on the Vorlon Homeworld.
              She saw Hundreds, probably Thousands of people in the Vorlon hibernation center.
              The most likely explanation is that they were all undergoing (or had undergone) modifications to make them useful Vorlon Agents.

              Each would then be returned to their worlds when the time was right for them to perform whatever duties their particular talents suited them for.

              As we saw with Jack, Nobody is a complete waste.

              And each would have hidden mental programming, just as Lyta did, which would only activate if the correct situation occurred.

              As for Why they would use surrogates, in addition to saving Vorlons from having to do it themselves, there are also jobs that a Human would simply perform Better than a Vorlon.

              Take Jack as an example:
              Would Delenn & Sheridan have argued with as much passion if it had been Kosh instead of another Human?
              Kosh could have Told them they were the Right People.
              But what he Needed was for them to Prove it to themselves.

              Jack could do that. A Vorlon couldn't.

              After all, who argues with an Angel?

              Comment


              • #37
                Even with Their ships, how long do you suppose it would take to reach the Next Galaxy over?
                Or the one beyond THAT?
                Depends on what size galaxy you're talking about.

                Something like the Canis Major Dwarf is 25,000 lightyears away from us here on Earth.

                The more well-known of the smaller galaxies are quite further out than that. The Large Magellanic Cloud is 179,000 lightyears away. The Small Magellanic Cloud is 210,000 lightyears away.

                The closest galaxy of near size to the Milky Way is of course Andromeda, which is 2,900,000 lightyears away.

                So, I guess it all comes down to how fast travelling through hyperspace actually relates to travel through regular space to figure out how long it'd take before they came upon something interesting.

                More information on the Local Group found here.

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                • #38
                  Depends on what size galaxy you're talking about.
                  More like What size Universe!

                  There are enough other Galaxies to keep the First ones amused for the forseeable future.

                  So, Kosh, how was Andromeda?

                  OK. Not as nice as OOzaark, but a lot less Shadows hanging around the nebulae.

                  Yeah, they can be such a drag. Always kicking over the anthills, leaving Chaos behind.

                  And who has to go behind them, picking up the litter? Us, that's who. It's enough to make you wish we'd left them behind in the home galaxy.

                  Yeah, if we'd put a fence around Z'ha'dum and snuck out while they were sleeping, it might have been a Million Years before they woke up again.

                  By that time, the younger races would have been mature enough to deal with them.

                  Well, like Lorien always said, live long enough and you figure out what All your mistakes were.

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                  • #39
                    Now I am lost. How old was Sinclair on B4 after the last tacheon surge? The Minbari could live for about 150 years I believe this is why he chose to go into the past and the Chrysilis transformation. Sinclair mentioned that if he returned to his own time he would die, ie old age would kill him.
                    Battlestar Pacifica:

                    http://s4.invisionfree.com/Battlesta...ica/index.php?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                      [BThe Illusion of Truth pretty much covers this angle. [/B]
                      Doh! That is the ep I meant, too. Honest, cross my heart!
                      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by vacantlook
                        Ah, but did the triluminary detect a Minbari soul at all? It all seemed to me that all it detected was traces of Human DNA, it was just that the Minbari believed it was detecting Minbari souls out of not knowing exactly what the triluminaries were.
                        But Lenier tells us ("Points of Departure") that other humans were picked up and examined as well. If they all were "the soul of valen" then Sinclair would have been dropped as a matter of interest.

                        No, they saw something significant and singular in Sinclair.
                        I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                        • #42
                          No, they saw something significant and singular in Sinclair.
                          Yes, if the triluminaries are keyed to Human DNA, the source of its DNA to make such comparisons would come from Sinclair. Sincliar has the greatest exactness to Sinclair's DNA, so a triluminary would register greatest in response to him. It would register more weakly in response to other Humans because their DNA would be similar to Sinclair's but not the same.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bakana
                            Take Jack as an example:
                            Would Delenn & Sheridan have argued with as much passion if it had been Kosh instead of another Human?
                            Kosh could have Told them they were the Right People.
                            But what he Needed was for them to Prove it to themselves.

                            Jack could do that. A Vorlon couldn't.

                            After all, who argues with an Angel?

                            I think you misunderstand. Kosh did not know the true message that meant the liberators any more than Delenn and Sheridan did. The lesson was, "some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved." Delenn and Sheridan showed that they could make that sacrifice. Kosh didn't know that it was a question for him as much as a question for them until "Interludes and Examinations" when he was forced to live up to his understanding of his own teachings to date.

                            Comes the Inquisitor was not about Sheridan and Delenn. It was about Kosh. He could no longer excuse inaction after he was shown the committment of the younger races to the cause he ostensibly believed in. Being active against the Shadows would ultimately mean paying the price.

                            But Kosh must be sacrificed if all were to be saved. Even beyond death he kept that promise.
                            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by vacantlook
                              Yes, if the triluminaries are keyed to Human DNA...
                              Ah, yes, if. If JMS would just be clearer about this!

                              You and JoeDM can believe it was all a matter of atomic arrangements. I like to think it was more spiritual than that. JMS did not say that the triluminary detected DNA, though you could conclude that was what he meant.
                              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Yeah, I do conclude that.

                                Douglas Piligian <[email protected]> asks:
                                > Does it glow brighter if there is more of the DNA present?
                                > did it glow really bright when held up to Sinclair after he was
                                > captured at the Battle of the Line? Did they know at that time
                                > that it only glowed in the presence of Valen's DNA? ever get your
                                > ISDN modem to work?

                                Yeah, we showed it glowing when Sinclair was catpured. Since
                                it happened with Valen, they assumed it was because he had a Minbari
                                soul, maybe Valen reborn.

                                jms
                                Source

                                Stuff like the above, along with knowing how jms went about creating religious/faith issues that have simpler non-faith explanations (for example Valen makes a prophecy but it's only him stating what he remembers), it seems like a similar thing here. The Minbari accept the triluminaries from Valen. The triluminaries glow brightest at Valen, they interpret this as spiritual phenomenon indicating his soul. So, when it glows as bright again at Sinclair, they assume it's indicating Valen's soul. In the real category, it's detecting the same DNA of the same person.

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