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To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Spoilers!)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bakana
    A point to note: If the Vorlons could keep Jack the Ripper alive for a couple hundred years Just In Case he might be "Useful" , they could certainmly keep Sinclair/Valen alive for the same reason.

    After all, when they destroyed the Immortalityserum, Kosh implied that the Vorlons knew perfectly well how to make immortality serums.

    And, I can't see Sinclair/Valen accepting immortality unless Catherine got it also.
    Another thought is this, did Delenn ever tell Sinclair the temple story? They were friends and the implication seemed to be that they talked about different things, and a story from childhood might be a fairly safe topic. If Sinclair knew that, then like many things in his life, he could set about making it happen. The Vorlons could have put him on ice at his own request. Can't really see him looking for waking immortality, though.
    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by WorkerCaste
      Another thought is this, did Delenn ever tell Sinclair the temple story? They were friends and the implication seemed to be that they talked about different things, and a story from childhood might be a fairly safe topic. If Sinclair knew that, then like many things in his life, he could set about making it happen. The Vorlons could have put him on ice at his own request. Can't really see him looking for waking immortality, though.
      Isn't passing beyond the Rim equivalent to becoming immortal, albeit in different form? Thus, Valen (& Catherine?) could have passed beyond the Rim after they were driven off Minibari, and then Valen can return as needed (like visiting young Delenn in the temple).

      For the same reason, perhaps Sheridan and Delenn could have "returned" if they wanted/needed to do after they passed beyond the Rim? (but it sounds like from "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" episode that they never returned from beyond the Rim.)

      In any case I'm more inclined toward the theory that a Vorlon (Kosh?) just happened to drop by to meet young Delenn back then.

      Just a educated wild guess at future history.

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      • #18
        Some day we may have an immortality serum. It's very possible from what I have read.
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
          Some day we may have an immortality serum. It's very possible from what I have read.
          Yes, but will we be ready for it when we find it?
          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            All three of The One were persecuted for love outside their race. This is very symmetrical.
            I'm not so sure that Sheridan was persecuted for loving Delenn... maybe I didn't see than angle in some events in the series? What were you thinking about as an example?

            I think it's safe to say that Sheridan never returned from Beyond the Rim, Lorien especifically told him that he wouldn't.

            And I suspect that once Lorien took Sheridan away no other First One nor anyone else beyond the rim ever came back, they all got the hell out of our galaxy never to return. Maybe (if anything) Lorien and/or Sheridan and/or Valen came to take Delenn away too, but I think that would have been the very last time.
            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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            • #21
              Sheridan -- and Valen and Delenn if they got to go -- going beyond the Rim with the First Ones seems to me to be a lot like Bilbo, Frodo, eventually Sam, and also eventually Gimli getting to go into the west with the Elves in Lord of the Rings.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by vacantlook
                going beyond the Rim with the First Ones seems to me to be a lot like Bilbo, Frodo, eventually Sam, and also eventually Gimli getting to go into the west with the Elves in Lord of the Rings.
                Or like the Lady of the Lake bringing Arthur to Avalon so he can return in a time when he is most needed.
                http://www.andrewcardinale.com
                @acardi

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                • #23
                  Ok, that make more sense now--the Ones not returning ever, just like Bilbo, Frodo, etc.

                  A most fitting end for those who have sacrificed so much.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by WorkerCaste
                    Yes, but will we be ready for it when we find it?
                    I had an interesting thought reading that. Basically, right now death is tragic, but it's something we accept because it's "natural" and because it "happens to everyone". But if we ever develop some kind of immortality drug, then wouldn't death become something "unnatural"? Perhaps something that only happens to "bad people"?

                    What I mean is, we'll probably be MORE afraid of death once we are immortal than we are now. An interesting concept, that. An immortal society that's very much afraid of death. A place where the whole subject of death is so taboo, that people who talk of it are outcast much like someone who'd publicly advocate some of the more illegal and immoral fetishes nowadays.

                    Yea, yea, off-topic. Ignore me. Well, it's not THAT off-topic. The First Ones were immortal, but they somehow accepted it. Does that mean there's an afterlife in the B5 universe?

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                    • #25
                      The only one persecuted was Delenn as we saw in the season 4 episode where she enters the dreaming and finds what Dukhat was trying to tell her, "You are a child of Valen." The Minbari believed that for Delenn to marry Sheridan the bloodlines would become impure. As we find out about half of the Minbari race has human genes as of the resulting offspring of Valen and Sakai. We know that Sinclair found sakai as mentioned at the end of the book in the message Marcus read, "I found her." As far as immortality that is tricky. IMHO it is an endless cycle with Sinclair being born, traveling to the past, becoming Valen, leaving disappearing/dying, and Valen's soul being transferred to Sinclair's body, ie his birth. I always wondered who else has a Minbari soul? As the series progressed, Sheridan began looking more and more Minbari like, ie dress, ie he startes to resemble Dukhat.
                      Battlestar Pacifica:

                      http://s4.invisionfree.com/Battlesta...ica/index.php?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                        Some day we may have an immortality serum. It's very possible from what I have read.
                        Yep. Google for "telemeres" and you should find the story, if google goes back seven years or so.

                        It is basically tricking the body's cells into reproducing after they are programmed to stop doing so (so as to make us too decrepit to compete with our young for food and whatnot).
                        I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paul
                          The only one persecuted was Delenn...
                          And Sinclair after he became Valen and was forced to flee Minbar for loving Sakai, and Sheridan for succombing to "alien influences" that left him unable to even stay loyal to earth ("And now for a word...")
                          I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                          • #28
                            SpanishFan, I never even thought that Delenn saw a Vorlon in the temple when she was a child, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense. Far more so than it actually being Valen. If she ever told this story (and there is no reason to suspect not, she was obviously very moved by it and she and Sinclair discussed personal spiritual matters) then Valen knew of it and thus so did the Vorlons.

                            The Vorlons imitated spiritual leaders from the Younger Races, and would have an incentive to ensure Delenn's destiny remained on track.

                            Yep, I like the concept. I like it a lot.
                            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                            • #29
                              I don't think Valen marrying Sakai was accepted by the Minbari, and in "The illusion of truth" it was implied that Seridan's relationship with Delenn wasn't easily accepted on Earth either.
                              As for the endless cycle, I see it more as a 'looping'. Sinclair's soul starting its journey in the 23rd century and going back in time only once. Then it joined the rest of the minbari souls when he died.


                              edit: apparently Grumbler was faster
                              Last edited by SpanishFan; 12-23-2004, 04:04 PM.
                              Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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                              • #30
                                But, I had the notion that the Vorlons used 'secondary' religious figures (Valeria instead of Valen, G'lon instead of G'Quan), thus making us doubt if those figures were Vorlons all the time or the Vorlons had just used the younger races prior beliefs.
                                Of course, not doing something doesn't mean they cannot do it, does it?
                                (I think I've got a headache now).
                                Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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