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To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Spoilers!)

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  • To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Spoilers!)

    Finally got around to reading it. Finished it in a single sitting, pretty much. Rather interesting, even though the style was very bumpy. Extra credit for capturing Marcus perfectly. I'd give it a 3.5/5, myself.

    There were two things that were implied, but never said out loud. Does anyone have any additional information on the following?

    Did Sinclair find Catherine? It was implied in the letter to Marcus, but never said. If he did, then how, where and most importantly, when? Is this what the phrase "I've found her!" is referring to?

    Did/does Sinclair... err... "Return"? I mean, I've always thought that Valen "returning" referred to the fact that he was from the future and was originally Sinclair, so Sinclair taking command of the Rangers was him "returning", in a sense. But the ending left me feeling that we will be seeing Sinclair/Valen again. Just what did happen to him in the past? Did he finally pop back into the future? And how did they work around the "can't-travel-to-the-future-again" problem what with him being exposed to the rift without a time stabilizer once already? Seeing as they never found his body, did he use the method of time travel that Marcus ended up using?

  • #2
    Re: To Dream in the City of Sorrows (Spoilers!)

    Originally posted by elver
    Did Sinclair find Catherine? It was implied in the letter to Marcus, but never said. If he did, then how, where and most importantly, when? Is this what the phrase "I've found her!" is referring to?
    Some mysteries remain, but being somewhat of a romantic I have always chosen to believe that he did, in fact, find her and that they finally "got it right."
    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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    • #3
      Personally my theory is:

      Sinclair/Valen eventually pass beyond the Rim to join the First Ones, just like John Sheridan eventually do and probably Delenn as well (as her death is under mysterious circumstances just like Valen and John Shridan) , since all three were at one time En'zila (sp?), Ranger One. But before Valen passed beyond the Rim, he found Catherine.

      As for the 'return' part, I thought that was fullfilled by Sinclair being born (again) in the future (23rd century)?

      I've wondered how Valen's 'DNA' ended up in Delenn's family (and others). It implied that Valen had children with Minibari women back then, but that's hard to believe given his love for Catherine. What if Catherine borne children by Valen, and they were sufficiently Minibari to live in Minibari society? Remember back then Minibari didn't know anything about human until they ran into them in the 23rd century, so any children by Sinclair/Valen and Catherine would have to be very much Minibari.

      Are my theories too crazy?

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      • #4
        The quasi-official way I've heard it was:

        Yes, Sinclair found Catherine.
        Yes, Catherine underwent the chrysalis transformation with Triluminary #3
        Yes, they had children.

        Although the transformation is outwardly full and complete, there was still A LOT of human DNA in their genetic makeup (although it's possible it may have been rendered inert).

        At some point Valen and his family are pressured to leave Minbar. Valen never returns but his descendents eventually do. Time marches on, these descendents marry and the human genes are spread liberally throughout Minbari society over the next 900 years.
        Only a fool fights in a burning house.

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        • #5
          There are people here who know more than I do, so they will correct me if I'm wrong.
          I think I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that Valen/Sinclair did marry Sakai and they had children BUT she remained human. It was a great scandal and that is why they had to leave Minbar.
          Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by SpanishFan
            There are people here who know more than I do, so they will correct me if I'm wrong.
            I think I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that Valen/Sinclair did marry Sakai and they had children BUT she remained human. It was a great scandal and that is why they had to leave Minbar.
            That is about right, and something I learned only after hanging around here.

            Sakai did arrive 1000 years in the past, not sure if while the war was still going on or later:
            http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1679
            Sakai did not become Minbari in any form:
            http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10743
            Which did lead to a scandal:
            http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3065

            There's a post where JMS deliberately misleads people about Valen not having descendants, so as to keep the ascendance of Delenn a surprise. I get a chuckle at his further reply ( http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2594 ) when he was confronted with that... I'm sure we'll still be hauling those messages for years.

            Apparently Valen hung around in some form after he disappeared, this is tied to Delenn's mention of someone coming to her when she was lost in Valen's temple:
            http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2961
            (I completely missed that implication when watching the series.)
            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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            • #7
              Then if we can justify the fact that some Minbari have facial hair on Sinclair's human DNA, could we say that the reason why some MInbari looked asian was due to Catherine's?

              Or is this all due to casting choices?
              Marco

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                Apparently Valen hung around in some form after he disappeared, this is tied to Delenn's mention of someone coming to her when she was lost in Valen's temple:
                http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2961
                (I completely missed that implication when watching the series.)
                I've always wondered what it was that she saw. I thought it may had been a vorlon, but this makes sense (in a JMS way).
                But... now I've got a lot of questions about what the h*** happened with Sinclair/Valen.
                Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

                Comment


                • #9
                  It seems I forgot my copy of the book in question in another city... Damn pointless travelling all the time. Anyhow, could someone here please read the very last page and tell me if they also get the feeling that Valen will return one day, but not as Sinclair?

                  Delenn's story of the temple is... interesting. Was it a vision? Or was it really Valen?

                  Speaking of Valen, has there been a canon story about the Great Machine's origins? I remember JMS saying he'd write one -- could have been planned as a TV movie, even -- but I don't know if he did.

                  The strange thing is that the GM was built 500 years after Valen appeared.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by elver
                    It seems I forgot my copy of the book in question in another city... Damn pointless travelling all the time. Anyhow, could someone here please read the very last page and tell me if they also get the feeling that Valen will return one day, but not as Sinclair?
                    Why not as Sinclair?

                    Book ends with: "And he couldn't help remember what the Minbari always said. That Valen would return someday."

                    It's just about faith and hope to the Minbari people, i don't belive he returns to the future.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shakiroz
                      Then if we can justify the fact that some Minbari have facial hair on Sinclair's human DNA, could we say that the reason why some MInbari looked asian was due to Catherine's?

                      Or is this all due to casting choices?
                      I know you are kidding but Minbari's facial hair had nothing to do with human DNA. Dukhat was not a descendent of Valen and had facial hair.
                      http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2517
                      http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2617

                      I don't think Valen "returns to the future" literally, he just travelled towards it in the same way we alll do, by being alive (in what way I don't know) as time goes by. Maybe Valen shuttled back and forth from beyond the rim, maybe with the help of the Vorlons, only the Great Maker would know, I think he hasn't told the whole story on that.

                      I always assumed Delenn's vision as a child in temple was imagination (I don't believe in ghosts), but from JMS comments I think he intended it as a true vision of Valen.
                      Somehow I see some distant echoes of Jesus being "lost" in temple in Delenn's story.

                      JMS once mentioned that he would write a Great Machine related movie for TNT, but obviously he didn't...
                      Maybe it would have happened if Crusade had stayed in production...

                      There was a little more about Valen after the great war in the comic "In Valen's Name" the Lurker's Guide has synopses of the three issues <http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/comic/index.html > (which is all I've ever read on that story).
                      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Personally "Sorrows" is my favorite tv-tie in novel next to Andrew J. Robinson's "A Stitch in Time".

                        Didn't they answer a lot of questions in the 3-issue comic-mini series "In Valen's Name"? I've never read them personally, but I read a review of a long time ago.
                        http://www.andrewcardinale.com
                        @acardi

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                        • #13
                          I loved the book and wish they made it into a movie with O'Hare. "You are a child of Valen," stated Dukhat which must mean Delenn is a relative/decendent. Valen/Sinclair's return was mentioned in a season 2 episode where they set a plate for Valen. Also in WWE, Sinclair mentions the fact that he brought B4 back into the past and he would always be the one to do so. The letter from Valen was in Sinclair's handwriting.
                          Battlestar Pacifica:

                          http://s4.invisionfree.com/Battlesta...ica/index.php?

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                          • #14
                            A point to note: If the Vorlons could keep Jack the Ripper alive for a couple hundred years Just In Case he might be "Useful" , they could certainmly keep Sinclair/Valen alive for the same reason.

                            After all, when they destroyed the Immortalityserum, Kosh implied that the Vorlons knew perfectly well how to make immortality serums.

                            And, I can't see Sinclair/Valen accepting immortality unless Catherine got it also.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Three points here...

                              All three of The One were persecuted for love outside their race. This is very symmetrical.

                              If I remember it right, the Great Machine wasn't built five hundred years before B5, the race had been looking for it for that long.

                              Yes, it is highly likely that the Valen that Delenn saw was a Vorlon. Remember, they appeared as religious figures to many races, to manipulate us. And we know that they were involved with the Minbari for some time. They MAY have known at that point in her life that she would be the chosen one for the coming war, as covered in CtI.
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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