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Seeing Into the Fire 100th time

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  • bakana
    I would have to disagree based on this:
    I had forgotten about that post.
    I was basing my comment on Lorien's saying to Sheridan:

    "That was you?"

    "Perhaps. We all have secrets and surprises. Did you know you have a Vorlon inside you? Well, a piece of one."

    Sheridan & Lorien in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
    without any indication that Lorien recognized Kosh.
    Of course, Lorien might have had his own reasons for withholding that little tidbit at that point...

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  • Dr Maturin
    If I remember correctly, and we have discussed this before on the forums, the techno-mage trilogy gives these names for B5's resident Vorlons:

    Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Ulkesh

    In a JMS post, he told us their names are:

    Kosh Naranek

    Ulkesh Naranek

    I guess coming from JMS, the latter is true, but which gets more circulation, a JMS post or the books?

    <<This is the only concrete evidence we have about Kosh's age.
    Judging from Context, Kosh is probably at least a Million years old.
    Plenty old enough, even though he's evidently not quite old enough for Lorien to know him personally.>>

    I would have to disagree based on this:

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  • grumbler
    Originally posted by vacantlook
    No matter how many times I read this, I never perceive it to say anything beyond, "it was a weird statement made for the sole sake of just being weird; there is no other explanation."
    Agreed. It was a Koshism meant to sound weird and alien, like "the Hour of Scampering." It was not along the lines of "We have always been here" or "When the avalanch starts, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

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  • vacantlook
    We all are Kosh" was meant in a vague philosophical sense, since the Vorlons ain't wired like us.
    No matter how many times I read this, I never perceive it to say anything beyond, "it was a weird statement made for the sole sake of just being weird; there is no other explanation."

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  • Capt.Montoya
    Kosh was his name.
    Naranek was his title, not his family name.
    Ulkesh was his collaborator, but maybe not his friend.
    Ulkesh was also a Naranek.

    Have we ever learned of at least one other Vorlon name or title?

    As it say in one of the posts I linke: "We all are Kosh" was meant in a vague philosophical sense, since the Vorlons ain't wired like us.

    I┤m quite comfortable with the neural wiring I have, so I┤d rather not try to understand that statement further.

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  • Shr'eshhhhhh
    I thought 'Kosh' was Vorlon for "One".

    Therefore "We are all Kosh," Reads :
    "We are all one."

    Maybe "Kosh" was his title, the equivalent to Ranger One or Number One.

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  • Babel-17
    Thanks for the links!

    I think you'll find Babel-17 a fast paced and enjoyable read.

    Lol, I tend to read a lot into the fiction I really enjoy and when I know something about the author or subject matter.

    I once wrote, over several posts, in excess of a thousand words arguing the case for "Against A Dark Backround" by Iain M. Banks being a "Culture" novel.

    Hehehe, I think I pleaded the case fairly well, especially since I wasn't going on much*, but my idea was put to rest when someone kindly pointed out a link to an interview wherein Banks answered the question with a simple "No". lol

    Took nothing away from the fun I had.

    Btw, I've had Delaney's "Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand" waiting to be read for over 20 years.

    I found the style quite intimidating at the time. It's still on my "to do" list though.

    * I saw the lazy guns as being long range probes of the Culture that had gone a bit quirky over the millenia.

    In reality it seems Banks just endowed the AI known as Halo* with some Culture like attributes.

    * Yes, the videogame(s) acknowleges their debt to Banks.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    Originally posted by Kloreep
    Why? If they weren't killed, wouldn't they stay and fight? Or at least skulk around the room and wait to see what's going to happen?
    That's inconsistent with the blowing up of the island.
    Londo wanted those Shadows taken out so he could blow up their base without interference.
    Had Morden associates not been killed they'd have at least made a token effort to prevent Londo from pressing the switch.

    I prefer to avoid impressing speculations from other works of fiction into my interpretation of B5.
    Were it not for that a priori rejection on my part I'd consider your speculation plausible.
    ( BTW, Babel-17 is a novel I have but haven't read, I've enjoyed other works by Samuel R. Delany.)

    Some JMS posts that have bearing here:

    And of course there are more (including some that specifically say that Kosh was outnumbered)... My comment on those linked: y'all are reading too much into the "we all are Kosh" line. Speculation that assumes Kosh wasn't one of the oldest Vorlons is going wrong. JMS decided to leave most of the background story on Vorlons and Kosh untold to keep the sense of mistery.

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  • WorkerCaste
    I'd hesitate to try and guess whether Vorlons or Shadows are tougher based on what was presented in the series. The fact that it took two Shadows to kill Kosh is inconclusive. One might have been evenly matched, so two succeeded. You don't know from that whether or not it would take two Vorlons to kill a Shadow. As far as the telepathic message goes, sending that might well have shortened the fight, but Kosh knew he'd lose so he opted for the message. Also, neither side in that fight would have been served by blowing out part of the station, so you don't necessarily know what full force might be. As far as the Centauri weapons taking out SHadows, you never saw what those weapons could do to Vorlons. There's really no conclusive comparison anywhere.

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  • Dr Maturin
    <<There had to be at least two to kill a Vorlon and even then a single Vorlon giving them half their attention while making telepathic last calls gave them a good fight.>>

    As Sh'reshhhh said, the Vorlons believe in the genetic manipulation of races, themselves included perhaps, so it is plausible that their active role in their own development gave them an edge in fighting their archnemeses. The Shadows come out of the woodwork every 1,000 years to promote a "sink or swim" environment and war with the younger races, thus pushing evolution, including their own. So it is plausible that the Vorlons are more powerful when it comes to combat with the Shadows.

    As for the telepathic "weakness," the teeps aren't affecting Shadow tech per se, they are affecting the control systems of their tech, which are humanoid. You take the battery out of something, it doesn't work anymore.

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  • bakana
    "I don't have much time, son. I want you to know you were right.
    I didn't want to admit that. Just .. pride, I guess.
    Yet,at my age, you get kind of set in your ways.
    That had to be done, don't blame yourself .. for what happened later."

    "Dad? Are you .. all right?"

    "It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before.
    I knew what was ahead. I guess .. I guess I was afraid.
    When you have lived as long as I have, you kind of get used to it.
    I wish I could've done more for you.
    There is so much I should've said, and .. now it's too late.
    You're right, it's time you begin fighting this war your way. ..
    Aah, I gotta go now, John."

    Kosh appearing to Sheridan as his father in Babylon 5: "Interludes and Examinations"
    "Despite their strength the Vorlons are delicate people.
    They do not react well to change, and they are not very forgiving of mistakes.
    It's been a long time since one of them died, they are taking it pretty hard."

    Lyta in Babylon 5:"Walkabout"
    This is the only concrete evidence we have about Kosh's age.
    Judging from Context, Kosh is probably at least a Million years old.
    Plenty old enough, even though he's evidently not quite old enough for Lorien to know him personally.

    The most likely explanation for the lack of Young Vorlons is that, with that sort of lifespan, (immortality) they would Have to practice very strict birth control or pretty soon there'd be a Vorlon behind every pine & oak tree.
    Not that they Can't have more children, but that they don't see the Need.

    Or, looking at it from Lorien's point of view, ALL the younger races are their "Children"
    "Yes, of course I care.
    It's a terrible thing when your children fight.
    I warned the others, but they didn't listen.
    They never listen."

    Lorien in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
    Last edited by bakana; 01-23-2005, 06:59 PM.

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  • Babel-17
    Hmmm, that gives me an idea.

    Suppose that the Vorlons did reproduce but, given their life expectancy as well as other considerations, it was an extremely rare occurrence. Perhaps only happening once in a very great while.

    Following that idea, suppose that all Vorlons participated in the act of conception.

    Kosh then, in a sense, would represent all their hopes, all their dreams. Just like humanity views its children.

    I'm not trying to beat the idea to death. It's just that Kosh seemed exceptionally willing (for a Vorlon) to explore and take chances. Those are attributes found in greatest abundance in youth (imo and by human standards).

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  • circularREASON
    I always assumed KOSH was probably the oldest vorlon ( we are all kosh !!).

    As for the Vorlons being tougher than the shadows I suppose that was the great deception - didn't kosh have a brush with the shadows in signs and portents although we never saw it they did damage his (?) encounter suit.

    The Vorlons were the true power brokers in the galaxy.

    The shadows seemed a bit wimpy in comparison.


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  • Babel-17
    I had a theory regarding Kosh.

    I pictured the Vorlons as a race that had stopped reproducing as we understand the term.

    But for a time, even after they had become an energy based life form, they still had a method of keeping their species vibrant and changing.

    Much like in The Lensman novels with the Arisans the Vorlons would undergo a metamorphosis.

    At the end of it they would emerge spiritually renewed. Their memories would be intact but as if at a distant remove.

    They would feel young but would have immediate call on their millenia of experience.

    Eventually even that method fell out of favor.

    But not all at once.

    I've always mused that Kosh was the last of the Vorlons to have undergone the transformation ........ he was their youngest, their "baby".

    And that wouldn't preclude him from also being their oldest.

    If you ever saw the movie Dark City you can see that concept reflected (albeit in a dark and twisted fashion) in the character of that one extremely creepy child. They were too old a race and reproduction was no longer viable.
    Last edited by Babel-17; 01-21-2005, 06:59 PM.

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  • Laiden
    Originally posted by Dipper
    Thanks for the replies ) For some reason it still strikes me as odd for that Vorlon image to be a woman. Although Vorlons do not have gender (that we know of anyway), they've always seemed quite bulky and masculine.
    I know I am late in the disscussion, but the way I saw it, Sheridan saw a representation of the vorlons that was apeasing to his mind, a female. Being in Ice was just a metaphor, for being "frozen" in their ways. Much like Delenn saw people she knew when she spoke to the shadows. she saw several people as she spoke to them, which also shows a metaphor for being Chaotic.

    as for a hierarchy, they probably have some kind of 'council' if you will. but that is probably for making large decisions only. I believe they work as one, and the vorlon Sheridan talked to, was probably the head of the fleet. who even knows if they have actuall crew aboard since their ships are organic. the shadows dont have crews for their ships. to me it seems that the vorlon ships can fly themselves so they probably can be commanded without a pilot.

    Yet . . . who knows

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