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Seeing Into the Fire 100th time

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  • #31
    I never thought of that as so odd - we're quite killable by PPG too - but now that I think about it, it is odd: Vorlons are incredibly tough to kill.

    Perhaps their lack of Vorlonesque toughness is part of the evolutionary price they pay for their invisibility and whatever other capabilities they have.
    Schlock Mercenary: comic space opera


    • #32
      We do not know that The Shadows were killed. They may simply have left the room.
      Andrew Swallow


      • #33
        Why? If they weren't killed, wouldn't they stay and fight? Or at least skulk around the room and wait to see what's going to happen?
        Schlock Mercenary: comic space opera


        • #34
          Originally posted by Kloreep
          Why? If they weren't killed, wouldn't they stay and fight? Or at least skulk around the room and wait to see what's going to happen?
          I think someone mentioned this earlier, but it could just be that their version of an encounter suit was damaged and thus had to withdraw, giving Londo enough time to act.

          Alternatively, (from memory) those guns don't look much Centauri weapons, they may well have been of Shadow origin, given that there was a lot of Shadow tech lying around Centauri Prime at the time.

          Or as the Whitestars fly at the speed of Plot, perhaps Centauri weapons similarily have the (Fire)Power of Plot?!


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dipper
            Thanks for the replies ) For some reason it still strikes me as odd for that Vorlon image to be a woman. Although Vorlons do not have gender (that we know of anyway), they've always seemed quite bulky and masculine.
            I know I am late in the disscussion, but the way I saw it, Sheridan saw a representation of the vorlons that was apeasing to his mind, a female. Being in Ice was just a metaphor, for being "frozen" in their ways. Much like Delenn saw people she knew when she spoke to the shadows. she saw several people as she spoke to them, which also shows a metaphor for being Chaotic.

            as for a hierarchy, they probably have some kind of 'council' if you will. but that is probably for making large decisions only. I believe they work as one, and the vorlon Sheridan talked to, was probably the head of the fleet. who even knows if they have actuall crew aboard since their ships are organic. the shadows dont have crews for their ships. to me it seems that the vorlon ships can fly themselves so they probably can be commanded without a pilot.

            Yet . . . who knows
            "It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past." -- G'Kar in Babylon 5:"In the Beginning"


            • #36
              I had a theory regarding Kosh.

              I pictured the Vorlons as a race that had stopped reproducing as we understand the term.

              But for a time, even after they had become an energy based life form, they still had a method of keeping their species vibrant and changing.

              Much like in The Lensman novels with the Arisans the Vorlons would undergo a metamorphosis.

              At the end of it they would emerge spiritually renewed. Their memories would be intact but as if at a distant remove.

              They would feel young but would have immediate call on their millenia of experience.

              Eventually even that method fell out of favor.

              But not all at once.

              I've always mused that Kosh was the last of the Vorlons to have undergone the transformation ........ he was their youngest, their "baby".

              And that wouldn't preclude him from also being their oldest.

              If you ever saw the movie Dark City you can see that concept reflected (albeit in a dark and twisted fashion) in the character of that one extremely creepy child. They were too old a race and reproduction was no longer viable.
              Confirmed User
              Last edited by Babel-17; 01-21-2005, 07:59 PM.


              • #37
                I always assumed KOSH was probably the oldest vorlon ( we are all kosh !!).

                As for the Vorlons being tougher than the shadows I suppose that was the great deception - didn't kosh have a brush with the shadows in signs and portents although we never saw it they did damage his (?) encounter suit.

                The Vorlons were the true power brokers in the galaxy.

                The shadows seemed a bit wimpy in comparison.

                Duracell Bunny is arrested and charged with BATTERY!!


                • #38
                  Hmmm, that gives me an idea.

                  Suppose that the Vorlons did reproduce but, given their life expectancy as well as other considerations, it was an extremely rare occurrence. Perhaps only happening once in a very great while.

                  Following that idea, suppose that all Vorlons participated in the act of conception.

                  Kosh then, in a sense, would represent all their hopes, all their dreams. Just like humanity views its children.

                  I'm not trying to beat the idea to death. It's just that Kosh seemed exceptionally willing (for a Vorlon) to explore and take chances. Those are attributes found in greatest abundance in youth (imo and by human standards).


                  • #39
                    "I don't have much time, son. I want you to know you were right.
                    I didn't want to admit that. Just .. pride, I guess.
                    Yet,at my age, you get kind of set in your ways.
                    That had to be done, don't blame yourself .. for what happened later."

                    "Dad? Are you .. all right?"

                    "It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before.
                    I knew what was ahead. I guess .. I guess I was afraid.
                    When you have lived as long as I have, you kind of get used to it.
                    I wish I could've done more for you.
                    There is so much I should've said, and .. now it's too late.
                    You're right, it's time you begin fighting this war your way. ..
                    Aah, I gotta go now, John."

                    Kosh appearing to Sheridan as his father in Babylon 5: "Interludes and Examinations"
                    "Despite their strength the Vorlons are delicate people.
                    They do not react well to change, and they are not very forgiving of mistakes.
                    It's been a long time since one of them died, they are taking it pretty hard."

                    Lyta in Babylon 5:"Walkabout"
                    This is the only concrete evidence we have about Kosh's age.
                    Judging from Context, Kosh is probably at least a Million years old.
                    Plenty old enough, even though he's evidently not quite old enough for Lorien to know him personally.

                    The most likely explanation for the lack of Young Vorlons is that, with that sort of lifespan, (immortality) they would Have to practice very strict birth control or pretty soon there'd be a Vorlon behind every pine & oak tree.
                    Not that they Can't have more children, but that they don't see the Need.

                    Or, looking at it from Lorien's point of view, ALL the younger races are their "Children"
                    "Yes, of course I care.
                    It's a terrible thing when your children fight.
                    I warned the others, but they didn't listen.
                    They never listen."

                    Lorien in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
                    Confirmed User
                    Last edited by bakana; 01-23-2005, 07:59 PM.


                    • #40
                      <<There had to be at least two to kill a Vorlon and even then a single Vorlon giving them half their attention while making telepathic last calls gave them a good fight.>>

                      As Sh'reshhhh said, the Vorlons believe in the genetic manipulation of races, themselves included perhaps, so it is plausible that their active role in their own development gave them an edge in fighting their archnemeses. The Shadows come out of the woodwork every 1,000 years to promote a "sink or swim" environment and war with the younger races, thus pushing evolution, including their own. So it is plausible that the Vorlons are more powerful when it comes to combat with the Shadows.

                      As for the telepathic "weakness," the teeps aren't affecting Shadow tech per se, they are affecting the control systems of their tech, which are humanoid. You take the battery out of something, it doesn't work anymore.
                      Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.


                      • #41
                        I'd hesitate to try and guess whether Vorlons or Shadows are tougher based on what was presented in the series. The fact that it took two Shadows to kill Kosh is inconclusive. One might have been evenly matched, so two succeeded. You don't know from that whether or not it would take two Vorlons to kill a Shadow. As far as the telepathic message goes, sending that might well have shortened the fight, but Kosh knew he'd lose so he opted for the message. Also, neither side in that fight would have been served by blowing out part of the station, so you don't necessarily know what full force might be. As far as the Centauri weapons taking out SHadows, you never saw what those weapons could do to Vorlons. There's really no conclusive comparison anywhere.
                        "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kloreep
                          Why? If they weren't killed, wouldn't they stay and fight? Or at least skulk around the room and wait to see what's going to happen?
                          That's inconsistent with the blowing up of the island.
                          Londo wanted those Shadows taken out so he could blow up their base without interference.
                          Had Morden associates not been killed they'd have at least made a token effort to prevent Londo from pressing the switch.

                          I prefer to avoid impressing speculations from other works of fiction into my interpretation of B5.
                          Were it not for that a priori rejection on my part I'd consider your speculation plausible.
                          ( BTW, Babel-17 is a novel I have but haven't read, I've enjoyed other works by Samuel R. Delany.)

                          Some JMS posts that have bearing here:




                          And of course there are more (including some that specifically say that Kosh was outnumbered)... My comment on those linked: y'all are reading too much into the "we all are Kosh" line. Speculation that assumes Kosh wasn't one of the oldest Vorlons is going wrong. JMS decided to leave most of the background story on Vorlons and Kosh untold to keep the sense of mistery.
                          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)


                          • #43
                            Thanks for the links!

                            I think you'll find Babel-17 a fast paced and enjoyable read.

                            Lol, I tend to read a lot into the fiction I really enjoy and when I know something about the author or subject matter.

                            I once wrote, over several posts, in excess of a thousand words arguing the case for "Against A Dark Backround" by Iain M. Banks being a "Culture" novel.

                            Hehehe, I think I pleaded the case fairly well, especially since I wasn't going on much*, but my idea was put to rest when someone kindly pointed out a link to an interview wherein Banks answered the question with a simple "No". lol

                            Took nothing away from the fun I had.

                            Btw, I've had Delaney's "Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand" waiting to be read for over 20 years.

                            I found the style quite intimidating at the time. It's still on my "to do" list though.

                            * I saw the lazy guns as being long range probes of the Culture that had gone a bit quirky over the millenia.

                            In reality it seems Banks just endowed the AI known as Halo* with some Culture like attributes.

                            * Yes, the videogame(s) acknowleges their debt to Banks.


                            • #44
                              I thought 'Kosh' was Vorlon for "One".

                              Therefore "We are all Kosh," Reads :
                              "We are all one."

                              Maybe "Kosh" was his title, the equivalent to Ranger One or Number One.
                              I have the wings for Bingo.


                              • #45
                                Kosh was his name.
                                Naranek was his title, not his family name.
                                Ulkesh was his collaborator, but maybe not his friend.
                                Ulkesh was also a Naranek.

                                Have we ever learned of at least one other Vorlon name or title?

                                As it say in one of the posts I linke: "We all are Kosh" was meant in a vague philosophical sense, since the Vorlons ain't wired like us.

                                I┤m quite comfortable with the neural wiring I have, so I┤d rather not try to understand that statement further.
                                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)