Legend of the Rangers (the 2nd viewing)

[Sigma]

Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
I still think it was a very busy period in JMS's career and he really didn't have the time to devote to the project that he would normally like.

I could be wrong but i belive JMS said that it wasn't as busy as when he was making B5/Crusade regular seasons and TNT movies.

[grumbler]

My view on TLOTR is that everyone... that means everyone bar maybe Alexander the Great... has a really bad day, and JMS had his really bad day when he decided the TLOTR script was done.

I am confident that he got his really bad day behind him, and it won't impact TMoS. Clearly the time crunch doesn't exist (as frustrating as it is, the time delay means to me that the project is being done right, not done yesterday) and he has always delivered when he has the time and team to do it right.

In short, TLOTR was the aberration, and isn't awful even if the worst of JMS's work (and, yes, it is worse than any ep of B5 or Crusade).

The acting had little or nothing to do with the flaws of TLOTR - every ep of B5 or Crusade had it less-than-academy-award-winning performances (and so did every ep of Star Trek, etc). That is mostly a function of budget limits.

[grumbler]

Oh, and the "haunted ship" bit could have worked in the B5 universe, done right (and I think there was a JMS design behind that which would have left us gobstoppered - it had that feel).

[vacantlook]

I guess I'm one of those odd people that really enjoyed Rangers (I guess I should expect it considering that I love The Phantom Menace ). I liked the holographic weapons system (I didn't like the unhuman-extended scream though). I liked the cityscape on Minbar (not all of our cities here on Earth look the same since different people design different buidlings in different cities). I liked both the Liandra and the Valen as ship designs. I liked ALL of the new characters: David, Sarah, Malcolm, Dulann, Kitaro, Tafeek, Firell, Na'Feel, and Tirk. I loved G'Kar's part in it. I liked The Hand. I never anticipated nor viewed The Hand to be like the Shadows in anway, so I never saw them as a fill-in for them. In fact, I anticipated The Hand to be quite different once all had been revealed, but I guess we'll never get that revelation now. I had really wished Rangers had gotten to be a series as I looked forward to it considerable (and I still would love to see a series of it now).

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

If JMS says he had enough time to write it and that he was satisfied with it, well, he's the man.

In which case I think he is mistaken to blame the shows failiure on sceduling alone.

The Paul McGann Dr Who show was placed against some key American football games and that too did badly. But that also was badly written and a real let down to the fans of the show that spawned it.

If JMS is saying he liked the show (in my opinion) I can only imagine his facilty for self critisism was having a bad hair day when he gave it the thumbs up.
Compared to even the least effective B5 and Crusade episodes LotR is sloppy work and a black mark on the great guy's record.

[elver]

Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
Compared to even the least effective B5 and Crusade episodes LotR is sloppy work and a black mark on the great guy's record.

Agreed. But now, go back and watch "The Gathering." It's, huh, pretty crap. The characters are boring and one-dimensional: Delenn, for example, is basically a filler who only appears when top secret data on the Minbari is needed. The set design is plain awful. And how do you actually shake hands with a vorlon?

B5 didn't get interesting (for me) until about the second half of the first season.

I'd say JMS needs time for new characters to "warm up" before he can start dealing out interesting plotlines and memorable quotes. (Nobody's perfect.)

The early episodes of Crusade seemed awkward as well. It was pretty rough until about the 10th episode or so. The music didn't help either.

And LOTR being a pilot with brand new characters... It wasn't good. It seemed painfully raw. Like an open wound that's still bleeding.

I haven't seen Jeremiah, so someone else has to tell us about that.

Now, B5:TMoS... It'll have old characters, so it'll probably be very good. I wouldn't worry

[KoshN]

Originally posted by elver
Agreed. But now, go back and watch "The Gathering." It's, huh, pretty crap. The characters are boring and one-dimensional: Delenn, for example, is basically a filler who only appears when top secret data on the Minbari is needed. The set design is plain awful. And how do you actually shake hands with a vorlon?

Well, actually, I rather enjoy "The Gathering" when I watch it now (except for Delenn's look, Earthforce weapons, and the Vorlon (number-of-ships) overkill at the end.

Re. shaking hands with a Vorlon, I wonder what the Minbari in the Changeling Net saw, Kosh as a Minbari angel, and he put the poison tab on a Minbari angel's hand?

Originally posted by elver
I'd say JMS needs time for new characters to "warm up" before he can start dealing out interesting plotlines and memorable quotes. (Nobody's perfect.)

The trouble is that you're not given the chance to warm up these days. Stuff has to be an instant hit, or it's history (e.g. Wonderfalls).

Originally posted by elver
The early episodes of Crusade seemed awkward as well. It was pretty rough until about the 10th episode or so. The music didn't help either.

The audience had to be given time to warm up to the music (which is possible, except for the awful end credit "music" in "Ruling from the Tomb.").

Originally posted by elver
Now, B5:TMoS... It'll have old characters, so it'll probably be very good. I wouldn't worry

Great Maker, I HOPE SO!

[grumbler]

Originally posted by KoshN
Re. shaking hands with a Vorlon, I wonder what the Minbari in the Changeling Net saw, Kosh as a Minbari angel, and he put the poison tab on a Minbari angel's hand?

Remember that each race saw what the Vorlons wanted that race to see, so if Kosh was fooled by the changling net, he was projecting (one presumes) a human hand for Sinclair's edification.

[KoshN]

Originally posted by grumbler
Remember that each race saw what the Vorlons wanted that race to see, so if Kosh was fooled by the changling net, he was projecting (one presumes) a human hand for Sinclair's edification.

Well, then, the Minbari in the changeling net would have seen a Human angel. I don't think that Kosh would have just stuck a hand out of his encounter suit.

[I love Lyta]

"I've just seen LotR for the second time.
...
The characters were dull, some of the acting was amateurish at best, the set design was terrible, ..."

Gee, for a moment I thought you were talking about Lord of the Rings here and thought like HUH?!?

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

I too like 'The Gathering'. Ok so the Delenn makeup mucks the continuity a bit but it is interesting to see how things might have been. And though the design and feel aren't quite there yet it was photographed/lit better than the series ever was. It's exposition wasn't any where near as shoehorned in as it was in Legend of the Rangers. And the cast was rather good. (even the members who didn't make it through to the final series were better than the 'plank' actors in LofR).
The bottom line is I can imagine myself watching The Gathering again many times in future, LotR I'll give a miss.

[WorkerCaste]

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
Nice to keep positive, but I don't think I agree with his claim that football took that much audience away. There can't be too big of a crossover audience between American football and science-fiction. Hell, football barely affects WWE wrestling's ratings, which would show a stronger resemblence to a possible crossover with football.

The markets that did the best were B5 fans tuning on in. He had the hardcore fans no matter what, but the key is to get the viewers who aren't hardcore, be they football fans or prime time TV fans.

I know it's anecdotal, but I had a group of friends that would get together in order to watch B5. There were around 10 of us in 5 households. We were pretty rabid fans and would sit around discussing eps for hours. 4 of those households were tuned into the football game. They were recording LotR, but they chose to watch the game live. If the game had turned out to be medicore, they probably wouldv'e switched over, but as it was one of the most exciting games in years, they stayed with it to the end. Most of the SF fans I know also like football, and the live event trumps dramatic presentations every time, after all, there's little chance of hearing the outcome of the movie on the news.

[WorkerCaste]

Shr'eshhhhhh, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The only real complaint I had about TLotR was the weapons system, and I believe that would have been easily fixed. Other than that, I disagree with almost all of your comments. Oh, I guess "We live for the one..." did start getting a little old. Minor complaints, IMO, though. Since I liked it, so I'm not surprised that JMS was happy with it. Just different reactions, but I do think you're being overly hard on the quality when it seems more like preference.

[Sigma]

B5:Rangers biggest flaws were

1) Weapon system.
2) repeated "we live for the one, we die for the one".

both already explained and

3) forced (and out of place) dialogue. For example G'Kar "universe is a nice place to live" and some lines in G'Kar-Martell dialogue. It looked like the script needed more drafts and rewriting (i belive and hope this isn't an issue with TMoS)

[I love Lyta]

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
It was a recurring sketch on Fox's variety show In Living Color. They were too very effeminiate gay men who'd hate movies unless they had some kind of homoerotic overtone to them. They'd scream "Hated it!" and snap their fingers in a "Z formation" for movies they really liked. Damon Wayans was Blaine and David Alan Grier was Anton Merryweather. Every time it was something different...Men on Film, Men on TV, Men on Books, etc.

I remember that. Tho it's been quite a while since I last saw it.
Hard to believe that Jim Carrey is able of playing a serious role when one has seen him as Firemarshal Bill in that show.

Personally I liked the Homey the Clown best.