Watching B5 with C&T - S4

[alpha128]

I've got to be honest I am a little surprised by C's G'Kar comments. Does C not remember the entire series after Londo met Morden?

Yes, but recent events revolved around Londo saving G'Kar's life and freeing Narn. I've always thought that G'Kar's reaction to Londo in the central corridor was unnecessarily harsh. It's one thing to say, "We helped each other when we needed to, now we go our separate ways." It's another to say, "You no longer exist in my universe."

I love this episode. It is so frightening and such a GREAT follow up to AND NOW FOR A WORD, 2.15. Did you remind them of that that episode or was that one you skipped, I can't remember? It definitely seems like C&T enjoyed THE ILLUSION OF TRUTH so I hope you did watch AND NOW FOR A WORD.

Yes, I did show C & T "And Now For a Word" and you can re-read their comments on it here. We only skipped one episode from Season 2 ("A Spider in the Web") and two from Season 3 ("Exogenesis" and "Grey 17 is Missing").

I did not mention "And Now For a Word" in my opening remarks because I didn't want to spoil the twist of this news crew's deceit.

[Looney]

"Epiphanies"

I began by repeating the line from the episode promo, "The Shadow War may be over, but the battle for Earth has just begun."

At the start C remarked that Walter Koenig looked ill, and T said, "Uh oh" when Bester's boss said they were going to "Shut down Babylon 5 - permanently."

When we got to Centauri Prime, C asked if Londo was now the emperor and I said, "No, he's the prime minister". She then asked, "Who is the emperor?" and I replied, "No one."

While Garibaldi was shaving, T noted that he was using an ancient (by 23rd Century standards) straight razor. I commented about something I had never noticed before, that Garibaldi had a Daffy Duck liquid soap dispenser.

When Garibaldi resigned his position, C asked if that meant he was off the series. I replied, "He left his job, not the series."

T enjoyed the humor in the docking bay scene - first when Bester asked if his usual quarters in the brig were available, and then when the Elvis impersonators showed up.

When G'Kar told Londo "Pray that we never notice one another again", C asked why G'Kar was being so mean to Londo, given that Londo had worked to save G'Kar's life. I offered up "He's been through a lot" as an explanation.

T said "Wow!" when Z'ha'dum exploded. Later, when the Keeper showed up on the Regent's neck, C asked what that was. I told them it was an alien parasite that can control your mind. I reminded them that future Londo had one and had learned if he drank a lot he could put it to sleep.

I like the C noticed Garibaldi's resignation might mean he was leaving the show. It demonstrates that C has emotional attachment to characters staying or leaving.

Wow! I've got to be honest I am a little surprised by C's G'Kar comments. Does C not remember the entire series after Londo met Morden?

"Epiphanies"
"The Illusion of Truth"

Not wanting to spoil anything, I started by reminding C & T that Garibaldi had resigned his position, and that Bester's lover was being kept in cryogenic freeze on the station.

T got a chuckle from Zack smiling for the camera and from Sheridan clarifying Ivanova's comments. When Randall said there was no such thing as an objective journalist, T quipped "Fake news".

C asked about the tension between Garibaldi and Sheridan early on, and I said, "They're not getting along right now."

T noted that Franklin's conversation about the cryo units had been caught on camera.

During the "This Year in History" segment it was stated that the first lunar base was built in 2018. I joked that they were just about to start construction.

After the commercial break, when it was clear that Randall had been lying through his teeth, C quipped, "Fake news! Fake news! Trump is right!"

When we got to Garibaldi's interview, C was surprised, asking "Did he really say that?" I replied that I thought he had. C then asked, "Why would he do that?" I said that it had something to do with the flashback where Garibaldi was being told repeatedly, "You work for no one but us." C then asked, "Did they plant something in his mind?" I replied, "Maybe."

After the credits rolled, I said, "This episode may be more relevant today than when it was made." T said, "Maybe so." And C mentioned recent violence against journalists.

I love this episode. It is so frightening and such a GREAT follow up to AND NOW FOR A WORD, 2.15. Did you remind them of that that episode or was that one you skipped, I can't remember? It definitely seems like C&T enjoyed THE ILLUSION OF TRUTH so I hope you did watch AND NOW FOR A WORD.

[alpha128]

"Epiphanies"

I began by repeating the line from the episode promo, "The Shadow War may be over, but the battle for Earth has just begun."

At the start C remarked that Walter Koenig looked ill, and T said, "Uh oh" when Bester's boss said they were going to "Shut down Babylon 5 - permanently."

When we got to Centauri Prime, C asked if Londo was now the emperor and I said, "No, he's the prime minister". She then asked, "Who is the emperor?" and I replied, "No one."

While Garibaldi was shaving, T noted that he was using an ancient (by 23rd Century standards) straight razor. I commented about something I had never noticed before, that Garibaldi had a Daffy Duck liquid soap dispenser.

When Garibaldi resigned his position, C asked if that meant he was off the series. I replied, "He left his job, not the series."

T enjoyed the humor in the docking bay scene - first when Bester asked if his usual quarters in the brig were available, and then when the Elvis impersonators showed up.

When G'Kar told Londo "Pray that we never notice one another again", C asked why G'Kar was being so mean to Londo, given that Londo had worked to save G'Kar's life. I offered up "He's been through a lot" as an explanation.

T said "Wow!" when Z'ha'dum exploded. Later, when the Keeper showed up on the Regent's neck, C asked what that was. I told them it was an alien parasite that can control your mind. I reminded them that future Londo had one and had learned if he drank a lot he could put it to sleep.


"The Illusion of Truth"

Not wanting to spoil anything, I started by reminding C & T that Garibaldi had resigned his position, and that Bester's lover was being kept in cryogenic freeze on the station.

T got a chuckle from Zack smiling for the camera and from Sheridan clarifying Ivanova's comments. When Randall said there was no such thing as an objective journalist, T quipped "Fake news".

C asked about the tension between Garibaldi and Sheridan early on, and I said, "They're not getting along right now."

T noted that Franklin's conversation about the cryo units had been caught on camera.

During the "This Year in History" segment it was stated that the first lunar base was built in 2018. I joked that they were just about to start construction.

After the commercial break, when it was clear that Randall had been lying through his teeth, C quipped, "Fake news! Fake news! Trump is right!"

When we got to Garibaldi's interview, C was surprised, asking "Did he really say that?" I replied that I thought he had. C then asked, "Why would he do that?" I said that it had something to do with the flashback where Garibaldi was being told repeatedly, "You work for no one but us." C then asked, "Did they plant something in his mind?" I replied, "Maybe."

After the credits rolled, I said, "This episode may be more relevant today than when it was made." T said, "Maybe so." And C mentioned recent violence against journalists.

[alpha128]

I am kind of loving the shift in perception of G'Kar from 'freaky looking Alien' to a character they are invested in and care about.

I don't think C will ever enjoy the show as much as T does, as she says she's just not "wired" for fantasy. But the current situation is a big improvement from the early days.

[Ubik]

Yes, there is a lot going on in these episodes and I think they were both just trying to keep up with the plot. As with other plot-heavy episodes, C & T didn't say much other than a few quick comments.

I am kind of loving the shift in perception of G'Kar from 'freaky looking Alien' to a character they are invested in and care about.

[alpha128]

WOW! The most remarkable thing is that you have so little to report on these two monster episodes. Of course that is actually a good thing because it shows how engaged C&T were. I think the thing I am most surprised by is that you didn't report any reaction to the assassination. The fact that they didn't have any notable comments about how that went down surprises me. I guess my second surprise would be the same lack of extensive commentary from C&T about how the war ended, but maybe they were just processing.

Yes, there is a lot going on in these episodes and I think they were both just trying to keep up with the plot. As with other plot-heavy episodes, C & T didn't say much other than a few quick comments.

[Looney]

"The Long Night"

I began by reminding them that the Vorlons were headed to Centauri Prime, planning to destroy the entire planet to get at the Shadow vessels based there. And that the only way to get rid of those ships was to first get rid of the mad Emperor.

As we were getting started C said, "I hope that they're done torturing G'Kar" and I assured her that would be over after this episode.

When we got to the first throne room scene, T noted the presence of a court jester. Later, when Cartagia kicked the jester's cap into his hand and said "Humor is such a subjective thing" I said, "So much for the jester." C quickly asked, "He killed him?" I replied, "Yes, if watch carefully you can see the jester's body being dragged across the floor."

When Londo started unwrapping the package Vir brought to him, T asked what was in it. I said, "Watch, they'll explain it." T chuckled at Vir's "Kill Londo" scenario, and again remarked how different Vir looked after Stephen Furst lost weight between seasons. I see that, according to Wikipedia, Furst reduced his weight from 260 lbs to 175 lbs.

When Cartagia noted that he had G'Kar's chains replaced because they looked weak T said, "Uh oh." After the episode was over, they asked how G'Kar was able to break free of his chains, and I quoted JMS' comment, "That was one determined Narn" and added that G'Kar didn't need Londo's help.

T got a chuckle out of Vir's drunken word fumbling after the assassination. C wondered if G'Kar shuffling away from the trashed throne room meant he was off the series and I said, "No, he'll end up back on the station soon enough."


"Into the Fire"

I introduced this one by reminding them that Londo still needed to get rid of the Shadow vessels based on Centauri Prime, and that Sheridan's fleet was about to go into the largest engagement of the war.

There wasn't a lot of commentary from C & T, but they were engaged throughout.

As usual T enjoyed the humor, e.g., Delenn's reaction to Sheridan telling Ivanova to "haul ass", Ivanova accidentally ordering the Minbari to fire by saying "Aw Hell" and later telling Marcus "Don't jinx it".

C was confused by mental projections of the Vorlons and especially the Shadows. I explained that the "people" Delenn was interacting with were representations of the Shadows.

When Lennier warned that a missile was heading straight for them, T said, "Uh oh." At the end, T asked if all the First Ones were gone and I said yes, which was then reiterated by the conversation between Sheridan and Delenn.

I remembered wondering, when this episode first aired, what story B5 had left to tell. So I showed C & T, for the first time, the episode promo for next week. That particular promo answers the question by saying, "The Shadow War may be over, but the battle for Earth has just begun."

WOW! The most remarkable thing is that you have so little to report on these two monster episodes. Of course that is actually a good thing because it shows how engaged C&T were. I think the thing I am most surprised by is that you didn't report any reaction to the assassination. The fact that they didn't have any notable comments about how that went down surprises me. I guess my second surprise would be the same lack of extensive commentary from C&T about how the war ended, but maybe they were just processing.

[alpha128]

"The Long Night"

I began by reminding them that the Vorlons were headed to Centauri Prime, planning to destroy the entire planet to get at the Shadow vessels based there. And that the only way to get rid of those ships was to first get rid of the mad Emperor.

As we were getting started C said, "I hope that they're done torturing G'Kar" and I assured her that would be over after this episode.

When we got to the first throne room scene, T noted the presence of a court jester. Later, when Cartagia kicked the jester's cap into his hand and said "Humor is such a subjective thing" I said, "So much for the jester." C quickly asked, "He killed him?" I replied, "Yes, if watch carefully you can see the jester's body being dragged across the floor."

When Londo started unwrapping the package Vir brought to him, T asked what was in it. I said, "Watch, they'll explain it." T chuckled at Vir's "Kill Londo" scenario, and again remarked how different Vir looked after Stephen Furst lost weight between seasons. I see that, according to Wikipedia, Furst reduced his weight from 260 lbs to 175 lbs.

When Cartagia noted that he had G'Kar's chains replaced because they looked weak T said, "Uh oh." After the episode was over, they asked how G'Kar was able to break free of his chains, and I quoted JMS' comment, "That was one determined Narn" and added that G'Kar didn't need Londo's help.

T got a chuckle out of Vir's drunken word fumbling after the assassination. C wondered if G'Kar shuffling away from the trashed throne room meant he was off the series and I said, "No, he'll end up back on the station soon enough."


"Into the Fire"

I introduced this one by reminding them that Londo still needed to get rid of the Shadow vessels based on Centauri Prime, and that Sheridan's fleet was about to go into the largest engagement of the war.

There wasn't a lot of commentary from C & T, but they were engaged throughout.

As usual T enjoyed the humor, e.g., Delenn's reaction to Sheridan telling Ivanova to "haul ass", Ivanova accidentally ordering the Minbari to fire by saying "Aw Hell" and later telling Marcus "Don't jinx it".

C was confused by mental projections of the Vorlons and especially the Shadows. I explained that the "people" Delenn was interacting with were representations of the Shadows.

When Lennier warned that a missile was heading straight for them, T said, "Uh oh." At the end, T asked if all the First Ones were gone and I said yes, which was then reiterated by the conversation between Sheridan and Delenn.

I remembered wondering, when this episode first aired, what story B5 had left to tell. So I showed C & T, for the first time, the episode promo for next week. That particular promo answers the question by saying, "The Shadow War may be over, but the battle for Earth has just begun."

[Looney]

Yes that is what engaging writing does. You eventually identify with the characters and stop seeing their physical differences.

[alpha128]

So glad C is finally emotionally engaged and has forgotten things like G'Kar is not human.

Yes, I noticed the same. She's come a long way from the days when she joked that G'Kar was "part giraffe".

[Looney]

"The Summoning"

I began by recapping the plot points from the previous episode:
1.) Lorien told Sheridan that he couldn't create life, but could breathe on the remaining embers
2.) Garibaldi had been captured, interrogated, and gassed
3.) G'Kar had been captured by the Centauri. Londo agreed to free Narn in exchange for G'Kar's help in removing Cartagia from the throne.

T chuckled when Delenn told Marcus, regarding Ivanova's bad Minbari, "Anyone who laughs will answer to me personally."

Soon after, when G'Kar had his legs kicked out from under him, C said, "That's terrible. I don't like cruelty." As you can imagine, she later said, "I don't like this", during the electro-whip scene.

When the White Star discovered the pocket in hyperspace, I explained to C & T that they were looking at a Vorlon fleet.

When the huge birdlike ship exited the jump gate and initiated docking procedures C said, "It'll be Sheridan". Later when Sheridan stepped into full view on the catwalk, C said, "I was right."

At the end, when it was revealed that our heroes will now have to take on the Vorlons, as well as the Shadows, C said, "How about that?" T echoed her, "How about that?"

HA! Great reactions. If there is one thing viewers likely have no idea is coming it is that soon into the season they'll see G'Kar being tortured. SOOO INTENSE!!!!! And then the topper of the Vorlon surprise.

"Falling Toward Apotheosis"

I began by explaining that "apotheosis" meant elevation to godhood, and that this was a reference to the mad Centauri Emperor. I reminded them that the Vorlons had begun attacking any world that had been touched by the Shadows, and that there were a large number of Shadow vessels stationed on Centauri Prime.

C asked about the Vorlons, how the ostensible "good guys" could be doing this. I explained that although Kosh cared about the younger races, he was not representative of the other Vorlons in this regard. C asked, "So the Vorlons are just as bad as the Shadows?" and I said, "Yes."

C got confused by the woman who got knocked down in the docking bay and was then helped up by Sheridan. C wondered if this was Anna, and I said, "No, Anna's dead."

When Morden appeared in the garden, T quipped, "He's got one hell of a skin condition". I reminded T that Morden had been present on Z'ha'dum when the bombs exploded.

When Garibaldi and his team retreated from the alien sector, C asked why they were bathed in green light. I explained this was an indicator that the atmosphere in the airlock was now breathable, and it was safe to take off their oxygen masks. C also asked about the Gaim the Security team had passed in the hall. C thought the Gaim had entered Kosh's quarters, but I explained that he walked past them.

C asked what Kosh 2 (Ulkesh) had stepped into, and I explained it was an electrical trap. When the high voltage was deployed, and the security guards starting firing, C noted that it didn't seem to be hurting him. When an energy field seemed to envelop the station, C asked what that was, and I explained it was the two Vorlons fighting.

When Londo convinced Cartagia to conduct G'Kar's trial and execution on Narn, I explained this was all a ruse to get Cartagia away to a place where he would be less protected.

T got a laugh from Ivanova saying, "God, I thought I was depressing" in response to Garibaldi.

When Cartagia ordered the guard to "Pluck out his eye!", C groaned and said, "I don't want to watch this." I assured her that, "They don't show it."

WOW! This might be the most we've ever heard out of C. So glad C is finally emotionally engaged and has forgotten things like G'Kar is not human.

[alpha128]

"The Summoning"

I began by recapping the plot points from the previous episode:
1.) Lorien told Sheridan that he couldn't create life, but could breathe on the remaining embers
2.) Garibaldi had been captured, interrogated, and gassed
3.) G'Kar had been captured by the Centauri. Londo agreed to free Narn in exchange for G'Kar's help in removing Cartagia from the throne.

T chuckled when Delenn told Marcus, regarding Ivanova's bad Minbari, "Anyone who laughs will answer to me personally."

Soon after, when G'Kar had his legs kicked out from under him, C said, "That's terrible. I don't like cruelty." As you can imagine, she later said, "I don't like this", during the electro-whip scene.

When the White Star discovered the pocket in hyperspace, I explained to C & T that they were looking at a Vorlon fleet.

When the huge birdlike ship exited the jump gate and initiated docking procedures C said, "It'll be Sheridan". Later when Sheridan stepped into full view on the catwalk, C said, "I was right."

At the end, when it was revealed that our heroes will now have to take on the Vorlons, as well as the Shadows, C said, "How about that?" T echoed her, "How about that?"


"Falling Toward Apotheosis"

I began by explaining that "apotheosis" meant elevation to godhood, and that this was a reference to the mad Centauri Emperor. I reminded them that the Vorlons had begun attacking any world that had been touched by the Shadows, and that there were a large number of Shadow vessels stationed on Centauri Prime.

C asked about the Vorlons, how the ostensible "good guys" could be doing this. I explained that although Kosh cared about the younger races, he was not representative of the other Vorlons in this regard. C asked, "So the Vorlons are just as bad as the Shadows?" and I said, "Yes."

C got confused by the woman who got knocked down in the docking bay and was then helped up by Sheridan. C wondered if this was Anna, and I said, "No, Anna's dead."

When Morden appeared in the garden, T quipped, "He's got one hell of a skin condition". I reminded T that Morden had been present on Z'ha'dum when the bombs exploded.

When Garibaldi and his team retreated from the alien sector, C asked why they were bathed in green light. I explained this was an indicator that the atmosphere in the airlock was now breathable, and it was safe to take off their oxygen masks. C also asked about the Gaim the Security team had passed in the hall. C thought the Gaim had entered Kosh's quarters, but I explained that he walked past them.

C asked what Kosh 2 (Ulkesh) had stepped into, and I explained it was an electrical trap. When the high voltage was deployed, and the security guards starting firing, C noted that it didn't seem to be hurting him. When an energy field seemed to envelop the station, C asked what that was, and I explained it was the two Vorlons fighting.

When Londo convinced Cartagia to conduct G'Kar's trial and execution on Narn, I explained this was all a ruse to get Cartagia away to a place where he would be less protected.

T got a laugh from Ivanova saying, "God, I thought I was depressing" in response to Garibaldi.

When Cartagia ordered the guard to "Pluck out his eye!", C groaned and said, "I don't want to watch this." I assured her that, "They don't show it."

[alpha128]

Found it!!

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-14205

My work here is done!

As Ruk the android said in Star Trek: TOS, "THAT was the equation!"

Thanks, Jan!!!

[Jan]

Found it!!

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-14205

There seems to be this notion that nobody should be able to
jump ahead, or else something's wrong or bad about the episode.
Absolutely not true. If you're going to play fair with the audience,
whether it's B5 or M,SW, you've got to put enough bits of information
out on the table so that the person who's really following it can
figure it out...so that at the end, those who *didn't* figure it out
can back up the tape, watch for the clues or leads, and see where it
all came from. That's playing fair.

If NObody gets it, you haven't done your job right.

If EVERYbody gets it, you haven't done your job right.

The best case scenario is a bell-shaped curve. Some don't have
a clue what's coming, some manage to figure it out, and the majority
have a kind of vague sense where it's going, but there are still
surprises along the way. If the bell-curve shifts one direction or the
other, then you're in trouble.

My work here is done!

[Looney]

I am glad he put it that way. I watch a lot of mysteries and I am always talking about the ones that "play fair" and "don't play fair"

Agatha Christie's Poirot usually played fair, but I can think of at least one episode where they absolutely CHEATED!