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  • Looney
    replied
    Originally posted by Morden View Post
    Interesting - I've never once thought of any of those WWE-elements as "prophecy", I've always interpreted this as straightforward time-jumps/flash-forwards, showing us what happens years later. Prophecies have been handled differently on the show in my opinion (with the single exception of the infamous Garibaldi-Gatling-Gun-moment from season one). But well, engaging to know how else those scenes were seen.
    Well right there you give an exception to the rule that points to visions of the future not being etched in stone. And don't forget Lady Morella in POINT OF NO RETURN, 3.9, telling Londo he had chances to change things. This also tells the audience that characters can change their prophesied fate.

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  • Morden
    replied
    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    Yes, but we're always told prophecy is not set in stone. The more they show that as being Londo's fate the more it becomes set in stone. Having an entire movie devoted to the time just before the actual event cements that as his fate. And one could argue that while it might be inescapable that Londo die by G'Kar's hand it didn't have to be after some miserable time under The Keeper's control.
    Interesting - I've never once thought of any of those WWE-elements as "prophecy", I've always interpreted this as straightforward time-jumps/flash-forwards, showing us what happens years later. Prophecies have been handled differently on the show in my opinion (with the single exception of the infamous Garibaldi-Gatling-Gun-moment from season one). But well, engaging to know how else those scenes were seen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Looney
    replied
    Originally posted by Morden View Post
    I don't quite get your point, sorry - Londo's ultimate fate (voluntary strangulation by long time ally G'Kar) is shown in the 3rd season during "War without end", not in "ItB".
    Yes, but we're always told prophecy is not set in stone. The more they show that as being Londo's fate the more it becomes set in stone. Having an entire movie devoted to the time just before the actual event cements that as his fate. And one could argue that while it might be inescapable that Londo die by G'Kar's hand it didn't have to be after some miserable time under The Keeper's control.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morden
    replied
    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    The only thing I don't like about the spoiler aspect of it is that it cements Londo's end. If you wait and watch it just before SLEEPING IN LIGHT 5.22 then you can hold out hope that he will redeem himself and face a different fate. I'm not saying there isn't a form of redemption. I'm saying there could have been hope that he would find redemption and face a more peaceful end. Showing it this early means they will likely think this is where Londo is headed for the remainder of the series. I know when I originally saw it I felt off about Londo the rest of the way because I knew where Londo was going.
    I don't quite get your point, sorry - Londo's ultimate fate (voluntary strangulation by long time ally G'Kar) is shown in the 3rd season during "War without end", not in "ItB".

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  • alpha128
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    I wrote a synopsis of it that I'll be happy to send you if you PM me an email address (it's too long to PM here). The script was called "Gut Reactions".
    Like I said, I'll take your word for it. But thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    This is all news to me. I'll take your word for it that Mumy's script wasn't "good enough".
    I wrote a synopsis of it that I'll be happy to send you if you PM me an email address (it's too long to PM here). The script was called "Gut Reactions".

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha128
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    Keep in mind that Mumy holds a grudge for his (with Peter David) script not making the grade for season 5. He makes no secret of it. Speaking of 'not good enough'. (And yes, I've got the script and no, it really wasn't good enough).
    This is all news to me. I'll take your word for it that Mumy's script wasn't "good enough".

    Leave a comment:


  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    My plan to maintain address the flaws in Season 5 is the admittedly controversial choice to go with "Watching B5 with C&T - S5 (condensed)". I discussed this earlier, but Bill Mumy comments in "An oral history of Babylon 5" reinforced my opinion.
    Keep in mind that Mumy holds a grudge for his (with Peter David) script not making the grade for season 5. He makes no secret of it. Speaking of 'not good enoug'. (And yes, I've got the script and no, it really wasn't good enough).

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha128
    replied
    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    It will be interesting to see how this experiment effects their future viewing... Showing it this early means they will likely think this is where Londo is headed for the remainder of the series. I know when I originally saw it I felt off about Londo the rest of the way because I knew where Londo was going.
    I showed ItB thirteen episodes early, compared to where it originally aired. But in a way, I showed ItB where it was originally intended to air.

    One sub-thread I'd been planning on was a 3-episode arc that would look at how the Earth/Minbari War started, and Delenn's situation at the start of the war, joining the Council, that sort of thing. Now I was able to split that out. So in the series I can, in an episode, get into Delenn's role in the war and go into the background of how she got to know Dukhat, how she got into the Grey Council, and so on...all the stuff you'd need to see prior to the war. Then the two hours covering the rest, the progress of the war itself, could be covered in the two-hour movie.

    With the *benefit* that we'd have a little more money for the movie than we would for two conventional hours, so we could do *more* in the way of EFX, production value, and so on, which you're going to need to really sell the E/M war. So strangely enough, and as tends to happen, this has put us in the position of doing it *better* than if I'd dropped it into two standard-budget episodes, as was my original plan. - JMS

    http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10250
    It seemed to work out, as they had questions about what happened in "Atonement" that were answered by "In the Beginning".

    I'm also hoping that introducing General Lefcourt as David Sheridan's friend and John Sheridan's mentor in ItB, will pay off when the junior Sheridan and Lefcourt end up on opposing sides in "Endgame".

    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    It is also the best movie so I'd prefer to show it toward the very end. Having said this I can definitely see the reason to show it to C&T early. I might argue that it would have been better to show it to them at some point during Season 5 just because they might find some faults in Season 5 and this would rehook them. LOL
    My plan to maintain address the flaws in Season 5 is the admittedly controversial choice to go with "Watching B5 with C&T - S5 (condensed)". I discussed this earlier, but Bill Mumy comments in "An oral history of Babylon 5" reinforced my opinion.

    "The fifth season was just this kind of extra, like on how a DVD you get extra bonus bits. Somebody will release an album that's 50-years-old and all of a sudden, they'll add six songs to it that never came out on the album because for one reason or another they either weren't good enough or just didn't get finished or somebody said no. To me, that's what it's like."

    https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/an-ora...ay-to-tell-sci

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  • Looney
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    "Atonement"

    I introduced this one by referring back to the conversation in "And the Sky Full of Stars" where Dr. Franklin asked Delenn what she did during the war, and she responded it was "a topic for another time." I told C & T that another time was now.

    T enjoyed the humor in the beginning when Zack was being fitted for his new uniform and G'Kar's hijinks with his new prosthetic eye.

    I had to explain the Dreaming to C & T by saying, "They drink a potion that enables one person to vividly recall past events and enables another person to witness those events." I said they didn't really explain it in the episode and T said, "I don't know how they could."

    C was confused by the abruptness of the attack, asking what happened. I said that the humans had attacked the Minbari and they would find out the details next time. When T learned that Delenn had given the order that started the Earth/Minbari war he said, "She seemed so peaceful."

    When Marcus started to sing, T expressed surprise that Gilbert and Sullivan would still be known so far into the future. After the episode ended, he said it was a shame that the humans and aliens couldn't get along.
    I look at "The Dreaming" as being similar to what happens with Dust in DUST TO DUST 3.6.


    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post

    "Babylon 5: In the Beginning"

    As you can see, I went ahead with my original plan as posted earlier:



    And really the only part of the movie which could be considered a spoiler at this point is at the very end when Londo says that Sheridan became president of a great Alliance, Delenn ever at his side. But since it was a quick comment and the nature of the great Alliance is left vague, I didn't think this was too much of a spoiler.

    Before we started, I reminded them that we learned in the last episode that Delenn was largely responsible for starting the Earth/Minbari War. I explained that this movie told the rest of that story. C asked if this was a theatrically released movie, or a made for TV movie, and I answered the latter.

    I also told them that this movie used a framing device where the story was narrated by future Londo. This created some confusion when Delenn showed up early on in her young Season 4 appearance.

    Overall there was not a lot of commentary from C & T, but they both stayed engaged despite the extended run time.

    As usual T enjoyed the humor, chuckling when the Lyssa punched Luc in the shoulder to make sure he articulated her desire for a true story.

    C recognized the actor who played the presidential aide, and it bugged her that she couldn't place him. A bit later, C expressed sympathy for Mira Furlan having to go back to her full Minbari makeup.

    During the Minbari trap for the Lexington, I pointed out to C & T that "Eagle 7" was Ivanova's brother, since I thought the space helmet and red lighting might make him hard to recognize.

    As the Lexington was luring the Black Star toward the planted nukes, T said it was remarkable that the Lexington was able to navigate the asteroid field, without colliding with all the asteroids. I replied that some smaller asteroids were bouncing off the hull.

    During the secret meeting in neutral territory, T said "Wow!" when the Centauri warship flew through the jump gate and destroyed the Narn heavy cruiser. When C learned of Londo's role in prolonging the war she quipped, "The purpose of this movie is to make everybody guilty for this war."

    Later, when Sheridan had been captured by the Minbari and cried out "Insil'zha", C asked what I that meant. I explained it was the Minbari word for "the future" which was then reiterated by G'Kar.

    During the Earth Alliance President's voice-over T did not realize that the voice belonged to a woman, and so he mentioned that the President was a woman when she was shown.

    They did not recognize Sinclair at first, possibly because his space helmet somewhat masked his appearance. Once he was taken aboard the Minbari ship, C recognized him and asked how Sinclair could be in this since Michael O'Hare was still battling mental illness around this time. I explained that no new footage of Sinclair was shot for this movie, and that his appearance is all stock footage from Season 1.

    Near the end, when the Earth Alliance President announced that the Babylon Station would bring peace, C quipped, "Yeah, right. There's been a war on for all four years!"

    The final comment was by T who said, "That was epic!"
    It will be interesting to see how this experiment effects their future viewing. I always think IN THE BEGINNING (1998) should be shown where it takes place in time, but of course that is not how it aired. The only thing I don't like about the spoiler aspect of it is that it cements Londo's end. If you wait and watch it just before SLEEPING IN LIGHT 5.22 then you can hold out hope that he will redeem himself and face a different fate. I'm not saying there isn't a form of redemption. I'm saying there could have been hope that he would find redemption and face a more peaceful end. Showing it this early means they will likely think this is where Londo is headed for the remainder of the series. I know when I originally saw it I felt off about Londo the rest of the way because I knew where Londo was going.

    It is also the best movie so I'd prefer to show it toward the very end. Having said this I can definitely see the reason to show it to C&T early. I might argue that it would have been better to show it to them at some point during Season 5 just because they might find some faults in Season 5 and this would rehook them. LOL

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha128
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    While I always recommend that people start from "The Gathering" and go on, I've always said that if they're struggling, show them "In The Beginning" so they can see how great it gets.
    I own the flipper disc edition with "The Gathering" (special edition) on one side and "In The Beginning" on the other side. So I could have shown them "The Gathering" before Season 1, but I felt the cast changes and makeup changes for Delenn and G'Kar would confuse them.

    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    Thanks for sharing!
    Thank you for reading and posting!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    The final comment was by T who said, "That was epic!"
    While I always recommend that people start from "The Gathering" and go on, I've always said that if they're struggling, show them "In The Beginning" so they can see how great it gets.

    Thanks for sharing!

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha128
    replied
    "Atonement"

    I introduced this one by referring back to the conversation in "And the Sky Full of Stars" where Dr. Franklin asked Delenn what she did during the war, and she responded it was "a topic for another time." I told C & T that another time was now.

    T enjoyed the humor in the beginning when Zack was being fitted for his new uniform and G'Kar's hijinks with his new prosthetic eye.

    I had to explain the Dreaming to C & T by saying, "They drink a potion that enables one person to vividly recall past events and enables another person to witness those events." I said they didn't really explain it in the episode and T said, "I don't know how they could."

    C was confused by the abruptness of the attack, asking what happened. I said that the humans had attacked the Minbari and they would find out the details next time. When T learned that Delenn had given the order that started the Earth/Minbari war he said, "She seemed so peaceful."

    When Marcus started to sing, T expressed surprise that Gilbert and Sullivan would still be known so far into the future. After the episode ended, he said it was a shame that the humans and aliens couldn't get along.


    "Babylon 5: In the Beginning"

    As you can see, I went ahead with my original plan as posted earlier:

    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    I do plan to show them "In the Beginning" later on. Specifically, I plan to show it to C&T after "Atonement". I want to test the hypothesis that "Endgame" will be even more effective if they first see General Robert Lefcourt in "In the Beginning".
    And really the only part of the movie which could be considered a spoiler at this point is at the very end when Londo says that Sheridan became president of a great Alliance, Delenn ever at his side. But since it was a quick comment and the nature of the great Alliance is left vague, I didn't think this was too much of a spoiler.

    Before we started, I reminded them that we learned in the last episode that Delenn was largely responsible for starting the Earth/Minbari War. I explained that this movie told the rest of that story. C asked if this was a theatrically released movie, or a made for TV movie, and I answered the latter.

    I also told them that this movie used a framing device where the story was narrated by future Londo. This created some confusion when Delenn showed up early on in her young Season 4 appearance.

    Overall there was not a lot of commentary from C & T, but they both stayed engaged despite the extended run time.

    As usual T enjoyed the humor, chuckling when the Lyssa punched Luc in the shoulder to make sure he articulated her desire for a true story.

    C recognized the actor who played the presidential aide, and it bugged her that she couldn't place him. A bit later, C expressed sympathy for Mira Furlan having to go back to her full Minbari makeup.

    During the Minbari trap for the Lexington, I pointed out to C & T that "Eagle 7" was Ivanova's brother, since I thought the space helmet and red lighting might make him hard to recognize.

    As the Lexington was luring the Black Star toward the planted nukes, T said it was remarkable that the Lexington was able to navigate the asteroid field, without colliding with all the asteroids. I replied that some smaller asteroids were bouncing off the hull.

    During the secret meeting in neutral territory, T said "Wow!" when the Centauri warship flew through the jump gate and destroyed the Narn heavy cruiser. When C learned of Londo's role in prolonging the war she quipped, "The purpose of this movie is to make everybody guilty for this war."

    Later, when Sheridan had been captured by the Minbari and cried out "Insil'zha", C asked what I that meant. I explained it was the Minbari word for "the future" which was then reiterated by G'Kar.

    During the Earth Alliance President's voice-over T did not realize that the voice belonged to a woman, and so he mentioned that the President was a woman when she was shown.

    They did not recognize Sinclair at first, possibly because his space helmet somewhat masked his appearance. Once he was taken aboard the Minbari ship, C recognized him and asked how Sinclair could be in this since Michael O'Hare was still battling mental illness around this time. I explained that no new footage of Sinclair was shot for this movie, and that his appearance is all stock footage from Season 1.

    Near the end, when the Earth Alliance President announced that the Babylon Station would bring peace, C quipped, "Yeah, right. There's been a war on for all four years!"

    The final comment was by T who said, "That was epic!"

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha128
    replied
    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    The fact that G'Kar says Londo no longer exists in his universe is actually a sign that G'Kar feels some measure of gratitude. That statement means G'Kar has no more concern for Londo, good or bad. Given their history Londo should be grateful because it means G'Kar won't be paying attention to him in any way shape or form, ie trying to see that he is exposed for everything he has done or even kill him in retribution for what the Centauri did while often envoking Londo's name. So while I would have loved for them to be instantly on the road to mending fences, I totally believe G'Kar's statement is perfect for the given situation.
    I don't know about that. Because G'Kar first said "You no longer exist in my universe", followed by "Pray that we never notice one another again". The latter sounds to me like a threat of physical violence. Combine the two and, as I said, it comes across as unnecessarily harsh.

    But I love how this ultimately plays out in "No Surrender, No Retreat". We go from Londo saying, "You are not going to give me even an inch, are you?" to G'Kar declaring "Issue the joint statement. I will sign my name... but not on the same page."

    Leave a comment:


  • Looney
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
    Yes, but recent events revolved around Londo saving G'Kar's life and freeing Narn. I've always thought that G'Kar's reaction to Londo in the central corridor was unnecessarily harsh. It's one thing to say, "We helped each other when we needed to, now we go our separate ways." It's another to say, "You no longer exist in my universe."
    I am definitely one who would have loved to see the relationship G'Kar and Londo had toward the end of Season 4 continue, but at the point where EPIPHANIES takes place I can completely understand G'Kar's reaction. We're talking about someone who was born into Centauri occupation. Who fought and watched many he knew and loved die expelling the Centauri from Narn. Who clawed his way up to a position where he ended up having to deal with the Centauri. Who had to endure another war and another subsequent occupation by the Centauri. Who had to surrender to the Centauri and allow himself to be tortured by the Centauri to ensure the release of his people from the Centauri's grasp as well as secure his own freedom. I can understand that while G'Kar might feel some FRACTION of gratitude toward Londo it does not outweigh the TONS of hate and resentment. Don't forget, G'Kar knows the role Londo played, so that adds to the situation. The fact that G'Kar says Londo no longer exists in his universe is actually a sign that G'Kar feels some measure of gratitude. That statement means G'Kar has no more concern for Londo, good or bad. Given their history Londo should be grateful because it means G'Kar won't be paying attention to him in any way shape or form, ie trying to see that he is exposed for everything he has done or even kill him in retribution for what the Centauri did while often envoking Londo's name. So while I would have loved for them to be instantly on the road to mending fences, I totally believe G'Kar's statement is perfect for the given situation.

    Leave a comment:

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