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Watching B5 with C&T - S3

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  • #31
    Did they comment about seeing Sinclair again at all??
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jan View Post
      Did they comment about seeing Sinclair again at all??
      Yes, one of them (I think it was T) said something like, "So Sinclair is back" at the beginning of Part 1.

      I didn't report on that because it wasn't very "newsworthy".

      Comment


      • #33
        I guess the 64,000 dollar question is, did the big reveal of who Sinclair was (Valen) have any kind of impact . . . was it any kind of a wow moment for either.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Triple F View Post
          I guess the 64,000 dollar question is, did the big reveal of who Sinclair was (Valen) have any kind of impact . . . was it any kind of a wow moment for either.
          I think they were more confused than wowed unfortunately. I'm going to have to give them a summary recap of Sinclair/Valen before we watch the next episode.

          Comment


          • #35
            That was the question I had. I will say that it shocked people I watched it with in recent years. In my mother's case she absolutely LOVED Sinclair so she was THRILLED when he showed up again. I was seriously worried when we transitioned from Season One to Two that she would not want to continue without him, but I think she knew Boxleitner came on the show in a big role and it must have been to fill a gap. I've talked about the show enough times over the years that I've probably mentioned Boxleitner more than O'Hare, so it was likely she was able to predict O'Hare didn't stay with the show for very long. She LOVED that he ended up being Valen, but was sad it meant he REALLY never would likely appear on the show again.

            Such a shame that they didn't really catch the power of that moment, but I think we all know C&T took awhile to warm up to B5. Still it is a profound show moment that was lost to them.
            Last edited by Looney; 05-29-2018, 10:28 AM.
            Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Looney View Post
              Such a shame that they didn't really catch the power of that moment, but I think we all know C&T took awhile to warm up to B5. Still it is a profound show moment that was lost to them.
              There's nothing I can do but recap and move on.

              Here's my summary recap of the ending of "War Without End" that I plan to share with C & T prior to the next episode. Please review and provide feedback:

              1. Sinclair and Zathras took Babylon 4 back in time 1,000 years

              2. On the way Sinclair used the triluminary, which Zathras had brought from Epilson 3, to transform himself into a Minbari

              3. Sinclair then renamed himself Valen, formed the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, and became one of Minbar's most revered historical figures

              4. One thousand years later, the Grey Council captured Sinclair during the Battle of the Line and scanned him with the triluminary

              5. The triluminary glowed because it was the same one that was used to transform Sinclair 1,000 years earlier and recognized his DNA

              6. However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader

              7. Therefore they surrendered because Minbari do not kill Minbari

              8. If you're still confused you can take comfort in the fact that Babylon 5 doesn't use time travel again!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                I guess the 64,000 dollar question is, did the big reveal of who Sinclair was (Valen) have any kind of impact . . . was it any kind of a wow moment for either.
                Personally, I loved this reveal a great deal. This episode made my head spin when it first aired. I still dig it a lot.
                Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

                Kosh: Good!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                  There's nothing I can do but recap and move on.

                  Here's my summary recap of the ending of "War Without End" that I plan to share with C & T prior to the next episode. Please review and provide feedback:

                  6. However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader
                  Is that what they thought or is it just they thought his soul was a Minbari Soul that might have been descendant from Valen? I'm not sure I ever got the impression they believed Sinclair was literally Valen reincarnated. I thought they just surmised Sinclair had a Minbari Soul and that Minbari Souls were being born into humans. I'm not so sure their hesitation was based on a belief Sinclair was the return of Valen. If I am wrong please tell me. And in reference to C&T I'm not really sure my point matters anyway. As much as they have gotten into the show I don't believe we are witnessing the birth of two die hard fans who will want to watch it all again when they get to the end. T might want to watch episodes you skipped, but I'd say that might be about it. I hope I am wrong. We definitely know C won't be buying any T-Shirts. LOL
                  Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Looney View Post
                    Is that what they thought or is it just they thought his soul was a Minbari Soul that might have been descendant from Valen? I'm not sure I ever got the impression they believed Sinclair was literally Valen reincarnated. I thought they just surmised Sinclair had a Minbari Soul and that Minbari Souls were being born into humans. I'm not so sure their hesitation was based on a belief Sinclair was the return of Valen. If I am wrong please tell me.
                    My earlier statement, "However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader" is correct.

                    The "In the Beginning" TV movie reveals this information. The exact quote from Delenn is:

                    The Triluminary confirms it. The human has a Minbari soul. And not just a Minbari soul, the soul of Valen.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                      My earlier statement, "However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader" is correct.

                      The "In the Beginning" TV movie reveals this information. The exact quote from Delenn is:
                      HA! I went and checked it myself and you are wrong . . . . .


                      . . . . Just kidding. I guess I mis-remembered that she specifically said "the soul of Valen." I was thinking she said "a" soul of Valen, meaning a descendant of Valen. I do want to keep saying you are wrong and I am right, so I am going to do that despite just admitting I checked that same quote last night.

                      So you are wrong and I am right.

                      I have a friend who loves to argue because he is good at it. He can't stand arguing with me because even in defeat I will just keep telling him that he is wrong and I am right. It is the only way to handle a person like that, he loves to argue for the sake of arguing so I turn the argument into an exercise in nonsense. Unless I am actually right. Then I take the same action, but it isn't nonsense because I am in fact correct with my stance in the argument. Usually it is more fun to be wrong because I can drop all effort to put forth proof and evidence. Being wrong means I can just present a pretense of proof and evidence mixed with name calling and babel. And I mean as much childish babel as my brain can conjure. He HATES that.
                      Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Looney View Post
                        HA! I went and checked it myself and you are wrong . . . Just kidding. I guess I mis-remembered that she specifically said "the soul of Valen." I was thinking she said "a" soul of Valen, meaning a descendant of Valen. I do want to keep saying you are wrong and I am right, so I am going to do that despite just admitting I checked that same quote last night.

                        So you are wrong and I am right.
                        The Triluminary confirms it. That human is Looney!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Here are the updates for the remainder of Season 3 - with additional commentary by a special guest!

                          "Walkabout"

                          Due to C & T's confusion with the last episode, I started out by delivering my eight-point recap of the conclusion of "War Without End":

                          1. Sinclair and Zathras took Babylon 4 back in time 1,000 years

                          2. On the way Sinclair used the triluminary, which Zathras had brought from Epsilon 3, to transform himself into a Minbari

                          3. Sinclair then renamed himself Valen, formed the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, and became one of Minbar's most revered historical figures

                          4. One thousand years later, the Grey Council captured Sinclair during the Battle of the Line and scanned him with the triluminary

                          5. The triluminary glowed because it was the same one that was used to transform Sinclair 1,000 years earlier and recognized his DNA

                          6. However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader

                          7. Therefore they surrendered because Minbari do not kill Minbari

                          8. If you're still confused you can take comfort in the fact that Babylon 5 doesn't use time travel again!


                          I then said that this episode would pick up three plot threads left dangling before the two-parter:

                          1. Dr. Franklin's resignation due to drug addiction

                          2. The death of Kosh and the appointment of a replacement

                          3. The hypothesis that telepaths can be used as a weapon against the Shadows

                          During the opening credits, C asked me if the reason for Delenn's transformation was so that the character could have a romantic relationship with the Captain and I said yes.

                          When C saw Sheridan walking along the forward cargo stabilizers, she remarked, "He's not anchored." But I replied that Sheridan was wearing magnetic boots.

                          T got a laugh from the universal Swedish Meatballs. To this day, whenever I pull a box of Lean Cuisine Swedish Meatballs out of the freezer at the grocery store or at home I say to myself, "Breen. You've managed to import Breen from homeworld."

                          When Ulkesh told Sheridan and Ivanova, "We are all Kosh." C quipped, "That'll get confusing."

                          When Lyta was being overwhelmed by the Shadow vessel, C said, "That's not working." But when Lyta did manage to stop the Shadow vessel in its tracks, T said "Ah."

                          C & T were engaged throughout the episode, they just weren't very talkative.


                          "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place"

                          You may recall, that I previously wrote:

                          Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                          Yes, I do plan to show them "Grey 17 Is Missing", because I feel that the Neroon stuff is essential. I'm just going to tell them up front that the episode is 50% brilliant, 50% crap.
                          I changed my plans because C & T had a houseguest ("A") who had never seen "Babylon 5" before. I decided it would be wrong for their first impression to be based on "Grey 17"! Not only did A not know anything about B5, she thought it was a "Star Trek" series, apparently confusing it with DS9. Rather than burden A with three seasons of backstory, I gave her a brief overview of the series, and then a more detailed recap of Londo, Refa, and G'Kar - since those three characters feature prominently in this episode's plot.

                          I did pause the playback and explain to A who Kosh was, since she asked about that when Sheridan mentioned that he hasn't slept well since Kosh's death. A also asked what the Centauri guard in the transport tube was doing, and I said he was signaling, so Refa's men could do that (jump Vir).

                          When we got to the Narn homeworld, I explained to A that the Centauri had bombed the planet from orbit and that's why it looked like that. And when Londo "appeared", I explained to all that it was a projection.

                          Overall, A seemed to have a fairly positive reaction to the series, although she did remark that the effects "looked old", which is a fair comment.

                          C & T didn't have a lot of commentary, although C did say at the end, "That was a good episode."


                          "Shadow Dancing"

                          "A" was still with us for this episode. As we were sitting on the DVD menu waiting for C to join us, T looked at the title and said, "This must have something to do with the Shadow War." I was explaining to A that Z'ha'dum was the homeworld of the Shadows, that Sheridan's wife and gone there and had never been seen again, and that Sheridan had been warned that if he went to Z'ha'dum he would die. At this point C joined us and quipped, "Of course he'll die, it says right in the name that it's dum to go there. http://instantrimshot.com/

                          During the opening scene with the League of Non-Aligned worlds, C was again complaining about all the freaks, and said that Delenn "always looks constipated". I pointed out that Marcus had a big part in this episode and that seemed to satisfy her.

                          As usual T enjoyed the humor, in this case Ivanova's struggle with the Minbari beds.

                          When the Shadows showed up in force, T said before Marcus did that it was a lot of ships. And when the battle turned into a furball, T declared, "It's a mess." And although I had tried to clue in A about the Walkabout plotline before we started, she got confused when there were two Dr. Franklins on screen, and I explained that he was hallucinating.

                          When the Shadows retreated, A asked why they were leaving. I explained that they had been defeated, but the good guys took heavy losses, which was then reiterated by the dialogue.

                          A was pretty well informed about the actors in the show. When Melissa Gilbert showed up as Anna, not only did A know who it was, but knew that she used to be married to Bruce Boxleitner. A also knew that Jeff Conaway was dead, which prompted C to look up his details up on her iPad.


                          "Z'ha'dum"

                          This was the last episode "A" got to see during her visit. I reminded them all that the previous episode promised a confrontation with Sheridan's opposite number, AKA "The Man in Between". I told them in this episode we would meet a character who describes himself as "A Middleman".

                          When the episode started C said, "Oh that is Melissa Gilbert." It was repeated by A that Bruce Boxleitner and Melissa Gilbert were married in real life when this show aired, and I mentioned this episode uses their actual wedding photos.

                          As with other plot-heavy episodes, much of commentary was in the form of quick comments.

                          T laughed when Anna told Sheridan the Shadow's actual name was 10,000 letter long. Later when Dr. Franklin told Ivanova that there was a problem with Anna, T said, "I knew it!" And when Justin asked Sheridan, "Who draws up the borders, controls the currency, handles all the decisions that happen transparently around us?", T quipped "Donald Trump!"

                          C said it was interesting that Z'ha'dum had an atmosphere but that it wasn't breathable.

                          When Sheridan said, "Or you'll do to me what you did to Anna" I remarked, "OK now they start to explain things."

                          A asked how Sheridan got bloody, and I said he fought his way out of there. T accurately described the hole Sheridan jumped into as "a bottomless pit."

                          I had reminded them at the beginning that Sheridan was warned that he would die if he went to Z'ha'dum, and C said "I know he lives, there are two more seasons." I said that yes, there are two more seasons, but that doesn't mean Sheridan is in them. And at the end of episode, when Ivanova said Sheridan was gone, C seemed to hesitate for a moment, but then said, "He'll be back".

                          When Garibaldi got taken by the Shadows, A asked, "How is he supposed to rescue the Captain?"

                          After it was all over, I asked A for her final thoughts. She said B5 was okay, but hard to follow. I said that was not surprising since I started her with the last three episodes of Season 3.

                          That's it until next time, when I'll be back with Watching B5 with C&T - S4!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I will have to come back later after I finish my Breen.
                            Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                              Here are the updates for the remainder of Season 3 - with additional commentary by a special guest!

                              "Walkabout"

                              Due to C & T's confusion with the last episode, I started out by delivering my eight-point recap of the conclusion of "War Without End":

                              1. Sinclair and Zathras took Babylon 4 back in time 1,000 years

                              2. On the way Sinclair used the triluminary, which Zathras had brought from Epsilon 3, to transform himself into a Minbari

                              3. Sinclair then renamed himself Valen, formed the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, and became one of Minbar's most revered historical figures

                              4. One thousand years later, the Grey Council captured Sinclair during the Battle of the Line and scanned him with the triluminary

                              5. The triluminary glowed because it was the same one that was used to transform Sinclair 1,000 years earlier and recognized his DNA

                              6. However, since Minbari believe in reincarnation, they interpreted this to mean that Sinclair was the reincarnation of their great leader

                              7. Therefore they surrendered because Minbari do not kill Minbari

                              8. If you're still confused you can take comfort in the fact that Babylon 5 doesn't use time travel again!


                              I then said that this episode would pick up three plot threads left dangling before the two-parter:

                              1. Dr. Franklin's resignation due to drug addiction

                              2. The death of Kosh and the appointment of a replacement

                              3. The hypothesis that telepaths can be used as a weapon against the Shadows

                              During the opening credits, C asked me if the reason for Delenn's transformation was so that the character could have a romantic relationship with the Captain and I said yes.

                              When C saw Sheridan walking along the forward cargo stabilizers, she remarked, "He's not anchored." But I replied that Sheridan was wearing magnetic boots.

                              T got a laugh from the universal Swedish Meatballs. To this day, whenever I pull a box of Lean Cuisine Swedish Meatballs out of the freezer at the grocery store or at home I say to myself, "Breen. You've managed to import Breen from homeworld."

                              When Ulkesh told Sheridan and Ivanova, "We are all Kosh." C quipped, "That'll get confusing."

                              When Lyta was being overwhelmed by the Shadow vessel, C said, "That's not working." But when Lyta did manage to stop the Shadow vessel in its tracks, T said "Ah."

                              C & T were engaged throughout the episode, they just weren't very talkative.
                              Well Delenn's transformation wasn't only so she could have a relationship with the Captain, but just as I'm sure the WB suits were given this reason it is probably the easiest answer to say that was the transformations purpose.

                              And "Kosh" can't be confusing if all of their encounter suits are different. LOL

                              And yes silence is often a good indicator of engagement. I also really like overreaction to action scenes.

                              Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                              "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place"

                              You may recall, that I previously wrote:



                              I changed my plans because C & T had a houseguest ("A") who had never seen "Babylon 5" before. I decided it would be wrong for their first impression to be based on "Grey 17"! Not only did A not know anything about B5, she thought it was a "Star Trek" series, apparently confusing it with DS9. Rather than burden A with three seasons of backstory, I gave her a brief overview of the series, and then a more detailed recap of Londo, Refa, and G'Kar - since those three characters feature prominently in this episode's plot.

                              I did pause the playback and explain to A who Kosh was, since she asked about that when Sheridan mentioned that he hasn't slept well since Kosh's death. A also asked what the Centauri guard in the transport tube was doing, and I said he was signaling, so Refa's men could do that (jump Vir).

                              When we got to the Narn homeworld, I explained to A that the Centauri had bombed the planet from orbit and that's why it looked like that. And when Londo "appeared", I explained to all that it was a projection.

                              Overall, A seemed to have a fairly positive reaction to the series, although she did remark that the effects "looked old", which is a fair comment.

                              C & T didn't have a lot of commentary, although C did say at the end, "That was a good episode."
                              WOW! High praise from C.

                              It is a shame you had to skip Grey 17. I admit that the Garibaldi plot is very lacking. I wish JMS had done that differently. I love the idea and I love Robert Englund, but I think that plot-line could have been better told. It might have been better to establish that there was something weird about Grey 17 in an earlier episode. I don't know. It is definitely one of JMS' weaker story structures, but there could have been production issues that caused it to turn out in a way he didn't originally intend or some other reason why it just does measure up. Like I said, I love the concept, but the execution was lacking in Garibaldi's plot-line of Grey 17 is Missing.


                              Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                              "Shadow Dancing"

                              "A" was still with us for this episode. As we were sitting on the DVD menu waiting for C to join us, T looked at the title and said, "This must have something to do with the Shadow War." I was explaining to A that Z'ha'dum was the homeworld of the Shadows, that Sheridan's wife and gone there and had never been seen again, and that Sheridan had been warned that if he went to Z'ha'dum he would die. At this point C joined us and quipped, "Of course he'll die, it says right in the name that it's dum to go there. http://instantrimshot.com/

                              During the opening scene with the League of Non-Aligned worlds, C was again complaining about all the freaks, and said that Delenn "always looks constipated". I pointed out that Marcus had a big part in this episode and that seemed to satisfy her.

                              As usual T enjoyed the humor, in this case Ivanova's struggle with the Minbari beds.

                              When the Shadows showed up in force, T said before Marcus did that it was a lot of ships. And when the battle turned into a furball, T declared, "It's a mess." And although I had tried to clue in A about the Walkabout plotline before we started, she got confused when there were two Dr. Franklins on screen, and I explained that he was hallucinating.

                              When the Shadows retreated, A asked why they were leaving. I explained that they had been defeated, but the good guys took heavy losses, which was then reiterated by the dialogue.

                              A was pretty well informed about the actors in the show. When Melissa Gilbert showed up as Anna, not only did A know who it was, but knew that she used to be married to Bruce Boxleitner. A also knew that Jeff Conaway was dead, which prompted C to look up his details up on her iPad.
                              There were some laughs there. I can't believe you can placate C just by mentioning Marcus. LOL

                              Originally posted by alpha128 View Post
                              "Z'ha'dum"

                              This was the last episode "A" got to see during her visit. I reminded them all that the previous episode promised a confrontation with Sheridan's opposite number, AKA "The Man in Between". I told them in this episode we would meet a character who describes himself as "A Middleman".

                              When the episode started C said, "Oh that is Melissa Gilbert." It was repeated by A that Bruce Boxleitner and Melissa Gilbert were married in real life when this show aired, and I mentioned this episode uses their actual wedding photos.

                              As with other plot-heavy episodes, much of commentary was in the form of quick comments.

                              T laughed when Anna told Sheridan the Shadow's actual name was 10,000 letter long. Later when Dr. Franklin told Ivanova that there was a problem with Anna, T said, "I knew it!" And when Justin asked Sheridan, "Who draws up the borders, controls the currency, handles all the decisions that happen transparently around us?", T quipped "Donald Trump!"

                              C said it was interesting that Z'ha'dum had an atmosphere but that it wasn't breathable.

                              When Sheridan said, "Or you'll do to me what you did to Anna" I remarked, "OK now they start to explain things."

                              A asked how Sheridan got bloody, and I said he fought his way out of there. T accurately described the hole Sheridan jumped into as "a bottomless pit."

                              I had reminded them at the beginning that Sheridan was warned that he would die if he went to Z'ha'dum, and C said "I know he lives, there are two more seasons." I said that yes, there are two more seasons, but that doesn't mean Sheridan is in them. And at the end of episode, when Ivanova said Sheridan was gone, C seemed to hesitate for a moment, but then said, "He'll be back".

                              When Garibaldi got taken by the Shadows, A asked, "How is he supposed to rescue the Captain?"

                              After it was all over, I asked A for her final thoughts. She said B5 was okay, but hard to follow. I said that was not surprising since I started her with the last three episodes of Season 3.

                              That's it until next time, when I'll be back with Watching B5 with C&T - S4!
                              Okay so right off the bat I have to say what poor timing for A. If A were to go back and watch anything prior to those three episodes it might seem weak by comparison. LOL

                              So did C & T have an immediate desire to watch the next episode?
                              Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Looney View Post
                                It might have been better to establish that there was something weird about Grey 17 in an earlier episode... Like I said, I love the concept, but the execution was lacking in Garibaldi's plot-line of Grey 17 is Missing.
                                Actually, it was established in Season 2's "Knives" that there was a "B5 Triangle":

                                Garibaldi explains it is a section of Grey Sector nicknamed by maintenance where there are strange lights, sounds, and disappearances. That piques Sheridan's interest, and despite Garibaldi's objection, he insists on going and taking a look.

                                http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/synops/039.html
                                But I guess the foreshadowing didn't help when it came to the execution of "Grey 17".

                                So did C & T have an immediate desire to watch the next episode?
                                No, but compared to our usual schedule, we practically binge-watched the three episodes we saw with A. That's why my last update covered four episodes instead of the usual two.

                                Comment

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