Watching B5 with C&T - Season 2

[alpha128]

I previously posted on this forum a B5 first watch thread documenting the reactions of non-science fiction fans "C" and "T" to Season 1 (condensed).

In this thread I'll be sharing observations as we watch Season 2.

"Points of Departure" / "Revelations"

Not much to report regarding C & T's reactions to "Points of Departure". There was very little commentary from them.

There was more commentary for "Revelations". T caught on right away that there was something going on President Clark, noting that the conversation between him and Sheridan "sounded suspicious".

I took great care not to spoil Delenn's new appearance. I cued up both of these episodes while they were out of the room, and skipped the opening title sequence both times. And it paid off as both C and T were fooled by the red herrings prior to Delenn's final reveal. When Delenn's empty cocoon was shown C said, "I hope she looks better now." But Delenn's early post-cocoon look caused C to ask "She's reptilian now?" Likewise, T did not realize that the tale of Delenn's butterfly wings was just a ruse to get Jack out of the security office. Near the end of episode C did remark that Delenn, "looks much better now."


"The Geometry of Shadows"

With this episode, I allowed C & T to watch the Season 2 opening titles for the first time. I explained how the first two episodes originally had non-spoiler title sequences, but this was dispensed with for the DVD release to save money. At this point C was feeling pretty good about correctly predicting Delenn's new look, and remarked that, "No woman in her right mind would want to look like that (bald with a bone) every week." C also asked me about Michael O'Hare's departure from the show, and I told them the true story as told by JMS about O'Hare's battle with mental illness. I also mentioned that he would be returning as a guest star later on.

Speaking of guest stars, when we got to Michael Ansara's credit and entrance, C recognized both his name and his face, but couldn't place where she had seen him before.

I told them going in that this was going to be a humorous episode, and T liked the humor quite a bit. And during the scene where Refa wanted to know how Londo handled Quadrant 37, T said, "Londo doesn't even know how it was done. I replied, "Yeah, that's right." I've seen the entire series so many times that sometimes I have to stop and think where we are and who knows what at that point.

C's take on the Green vs. Purple Drazi conflict was that it was an allegory on race.

[Morden]

Well done on concealing the metamorphosis of Delenn.

Would have expected more reactions to Sinclairs departure and the shift in tone that comes with Sheridan though.

Some very nice observations on "Geometry". Thanks for the updates and your project!

[Ubik]

Cool. All seems positive. You are beginning to get into the really good stuff, S2 is where the real build up beings and that 'epic' quality begins to come to the fore.

[alpha128]

Well done on concealing the metamorphosis of Delenn.

Thanks. It wasn't easy, but I think it was worth it.

Would have expected more reactions to Sinclairs departure and the shift in tone that comes with Sheridan though.

They had some reactions, but they weren't very "newsworthy".

Some very nice observations on "Geometry". Thanks for the updates and your project!

You're welcome. Thanks for reading and posting.

[alpha128]

Cool. All seems positive. You are beginning to get into the really good stuff, S2 is where the real build up beings and that 'epic' quality begins to come to the fore.

Yeah, the next episode that I'm really looking forward to watching with them is "The Coming of Shadows", which Katie appropriately describes in her video as, "forty-two minutes of intensity and heartbreak". But we've got a few other episodes to get through first.

[Looney]

For some reason I really wonder what they are going to think of GROPOS. I love a lot of that episode and dislike one part of it. I really like how it is a big reminder that B5 is an Earth Military Outpost and not just a gathering place.

[alpha128]

For some reason I really wonder what they are going to think of GROPOS. I love a lot of that episode and dislike one part of it. I really like how it is a big reminder that B5 is an Earth Military Outpost and not just a gathering place.

Compared to C, T seems to be more into the show in general and more into the action stuff in particular. So I imagine he'll at least like the bar fight.

However, "GROPOS" features a lot of Lt. Keffer, in Katie's words, "trying to be a character." So far neither of them have had anything to say, positive or negative, about Keffer. Maybe that will change after "A Distant Star" where he has a larger role. Personally, I think Keffer is OK.

As for "GROPOS", I think it's a decent episode, but I'm more interested in seeing their reactions to big arc episodes like "The Coming of Shadows" and "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum".

[Looney]

Oh yeah, I love GROPOS. It is one of those episodes that gives you the flavor of the Universe more than progress of the overall arc and I think it is great.

The only thing I mind about Keffer is that it is indeed WAY too obvious that he is trying to be a character. I feel like his introduction should have been handled differently. The way it was done is loaded with the feeling of, "Don't get use to this guy being around."

Quick question that I know people know the answer to. I have always felt Keffer was meant to have the brief arc that he has, so why give Robert Rusler a spot in the title sequence? Was it to throw us off? Was it some kind of clout he had that demanded he get opening credit? Or am I wrong and he was meant to become a series regular all the way to the end and then they immediately decided they didn't like him and JMS wrote him out?

If there is a Keffer thread please direct me to it and I will see what I can find. LOL

[Kraig]

Oh yeah, I love GROPOS. It is one of those episodes that gives you the flavor of the Universe more than progress of the overall arc and I think it is great.

The only thing I mind about Keffer is that it is indeed WAY too obvious that he is trying to be a character. I feel like his introduction should have been handled differently. The way it was done is loaded with the feeling of, "Don't get use to this guy being around."

Quick question that I know people know the answer to. I have always felt Keffer was meant to have the brief arc that he has, so why give Robert Rusler a spot in the title sequence? Was it to throw us off? Was it some kind of clout he had that demanded he get opening credit? Or am I wrong and he was meant to become a series regular all the way to the end and then they immediately decided they didn't like him and JMS wrote him out?

If there is a Keffer thread please direct me to it and I will see what I can find. LOL

JMS discusses it in the video commentary right at the beginning of the episode "The Fall of Night."

"The character of Warren Keffer never worked for me. Our last network note was can you give us a guy who is a hot shot top gun kind of a pilot and my first thought is eventually l will kill him because I hate that kind of character and, uh, I hate having characters told to me. Uh, so I kept him in for that one season and took him out."

[Jan]

Quick question that I know people know the answer to. I have always felt Keffer was meant to have the brief arc that he has, so why give Robert Rusler a spot in the title sequence? Was it to throw us off? Was it some kind of clout he had that demanded he get opening credit? Or am I wrong and he was meant to become a series regular all the way to the end and then they immediately decided they didn't like him and JMS wrote him out?

JMS did want a squadron leader character. His name was IDORI (Dory) SHIMA and JMS had his character profile all ready but...PTEN didn't like that one and asked for "... a character they thought would be better suited to “bringing in the female demographic,”" and "“Give us Babylon 5’s Han Solo,”13 they said, “someone dashing, young, brash.”"

So that's what they got but there were two problems: JMS isn't fond of being forced into a character and... it seems the guy really couldn't act very well. IIRC, in one of Joe Nazarro's interviews, somebody mentioned that Larry Ditillio had given him some good material in GROPS but he just couldn't carry it well.

What's that? You want to know more about Dory? Well, okay...

SQUADRON LEADER IDORI (Dory) SHIMA
Late 20s/early 30s, Dory (as he is usually called) is a fighter pilot and the one assigned to lead whichever squadron is called out. He comes from one of Japan's oldest families, dating back through WW II and down through the ages to ancient samurai. He takes his work very seriously, knowing that the lives of his squad rest on his shoulders. But off duty, he approaches his R&R with equal enthusiasm. Darkly attractive, he always seems to have a different woman on his arm every week.

He's a crack pilot, and a skilled tracker; once on your trail, he'll follow you to
the end of the universe if that's what it takes. He has an abiding interest in old Earth history, with special attention on Japanese culture.

And there you have it. One of the might-have-beens of B5.

[Ubik]

SQUADRON LEADER IDORI (Dory) SHIMA
Late 20s/early 30s, Dory (as he is usually called) is a fighter pilot and the one assigned to lead whichever squadron is called out. He comes from one of Japan's oldest families, dating back through WW II and down through the ages to ancient samurai. He takes his work very seriously, knowing that the lives of his squad rest on his shoulders. But off duty, he approaches his R&R with equal enthusiasm. Darkly attractive, he always seems to have a different woman on his arm every week.

He's a crack pilot, and a skilled tracker; once on your trail, he'll follow you to
the end of the universe if that's what it takes. He has an abiding interest in old Earth history, with special attention on Japanese culture.
And there you have it. One of the might-have-beens of B5.

Could have been cool. Definitely more interesting than a 'dashing young hero' type.

[alpha128]

Here's a quick update to contribute to the fighter pilot discussion. I did watch "A Distant Star" with C&T and there was still no mention of Keffer. Not even a "Who's that guy?" from them.

I typically post about two episodes simultaneously. So the next full update will be after we watch "The Long Dark", and will be posted in about a week.

[Looney]

WOW! Thanks for all of the info!!!!!!

After Kraig mentioned it I did remember hearing Keffer was forced on JMS and that is why he didn't last. I think he does have a decent little arc, but I think it is a bit obvious that JMS didn't care for the character and maybe that tarnishes the performance. Or Robert Rusler isn't a great actor. I don't know much of his work so I can't really judge based on this performance, especially knowing the writer didn't like having to work with the character.

I never remember hearing the "IDORI (Dory) SHIMA" story, so I GREATLY appreciate that Jan. (She even keeps us updated when she is in a hurricane. )

[B5-Stefan]

Or Robert Rusler isn't a great actor. I don't know much of his work so I can't really judge based on this performance, especially knowing the writer didn't like having to work with the character.

I never realized that RR was guest at Star Trek: Enterprise, S3 Ep.2 "Anomaly".
He did the osaarian space pirate Orgoth - tortured by Capt. Archer.

IMDB quote:
Capt. Jonathan Archer: "We're taking you back to the sphere."
Orgoth: "So you have let your morality get in the way after all."
[he chuckles]
Orgoth: "Mercy is not a quality that will serve you well in the Expanse, Captain."

I never remember hearing the "IDORI (Dory) SHIMA" story, so I GREATLY appreciate that Jan. (She even keeps us updated when she is in a hurricane. )

I was unaware of IDORI too.
Happy to see Jan in good condition despite IRMA.

B5-Stefan

--
"Always look on the bright side of life" [Monty Python]

[Jonas]

The Keff is a minor character, but I kinda like how he was handled. His horrible death adds to the sense of menace going into season 3. He probably would've been dull if he'd stuck around longer, but as it is he does serve a purpose.