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  • #91
    Originally posted by Spirit
    Shr'eshhhhhh
    Luicifer was the first of a new kind of angels... But he sinned and you know the rest of the story

    ----------------------------

    Actually it's contradictional. Angels unlike humans do not have a free will so they can't sin.. But some how they did... Nice thing to investigate... And by the way - it was misstranslation - the first thing created was the heaven and the earth.
    "Bereshit bara Eloh-m et ashamaim veet aarethz" - "in the beginning created G-d the heavens and the earth" - word to word.
    I love Lyta
    Nicely put :-)

    1) I WISH that I could speak Hebrew! I have enough trouble carrying out a conversation in English, let alone a comparrison of views in extinct languages!!!
    2) Old (Hebrew) testament or new (mainly Greek) testament, you examine the information within them and make your choice - though I, being Christain, believe in the latter, I don't actually believe that the two contradict each other and that the older books and letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today.
    http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
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    • #92
      "Try the Koran"
      Spirit wrote: "Not me, man..."

      Why is that?
      What's up Drakh?

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      • #93
        When a religious belief is not in the Bible it frequently comes from the Koran, the ban on drinking alcohol for instance.
        Andrew Swallow

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        • #94
          "the letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today."Originally posted by lightstorm

          I mean no disrespect to your faith and I agree that both testaments "contain" alot which is of merit.

          The 10 commandments are still a good guide. The Song of Solomon, is beautifully written. And the actual teachings of Jesus if followed would make for a much better world than the one we live in.

          But also in the Bible there is so much which is nonsense, obsolete, contradictory and just plain evil.

          It was written by men, it isn't the word of God (or at least I sincerely hope not). The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.

          I've always thought ones relationship with the eternal to be a personal revelation. No instruction manual is required, just be polite to one another and try and do as little harm as possible.

          Personally I find Aesop's fables teach morality with greater clarity .
          Last edited by Shr'eshhhhhh; 11-11-2004, 07:05 AM.
          I have the wings for Bingo.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
            "the letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today."Originally posted by lightstorm

            I mean no disrespect to your faith and I agree that both testaments "contain" alot which is of merit.

            The 10 commandments are still a good guide. The Song of Solomon, is beautifully written. And the actual teachings of Jesus if followed would make for a much better world than the one we live in.

            But also in the Bible there is so much which is nonsense, obsolete, contradictory and just plain evil.

            It was written by men, it isn't the word of God (or at least I sincerely hope not). The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.

            I've always thought ones relationship with the eternal to be a personal revelation. No instruction manual is required, just be polite to one another and try and do as little harm as possible.

            Personally I find Aesop's fables teach morality with greater clarity .
            You speak wisely

            Actually, Jesus had many followers. Many of whom wrote books about Jesus' work. Later, when christianity was made the dominant religion in the Roman empire (around the year 300AD), the Roman government chose which of those books to include in the bible. The ones that weren't included, of course, were about Jesus' more "mortal side", including his marriage with Mary Magdalene. The nonincluded ones were burnt, though some copies have been recovered.

            In other words, while the bible contains books by Jesus' followers, it's written by men and men often have different opinions of what is right and what is wrong. When the bible itself was put together, only those opinions were chosen that were beneficial to the government of that time.

            Interestingly enough, there exists some evidence that Jesus himself wrote about his own life in great detail. However, that particular book didn't make it into the bible and has not survived to this day. Make whatever conclusions you wish from that
            Last edited by elver; 11-11-2004, 09:22 AM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by LightStorm
              1) I WISH that I could speak Hebrew! I have enough trouble carrying out a conversation in English, let alone a comparrison of views in extinct languages!!!
              2) Old (Hebrew) testament or new (mainly Greek) testament, you examine the information within them and make your choice - though I, being Christain, believe in the latter, I don't actually believe that the two contradict each other and that the older books and letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today.
              I agree with the fact that Bible and the OT have many things to teach us. Besides the religion OT and Bible contain the laws that western civilization stands on. We can find there an answer to the question "What is it to be a human?" - human compassion, life saving, social rightness and love of humanity - those are the principals we raise our children on. Every nation, every constitution adopted those principals. We find 10 commandments
              in every law book of every state. 2000 years ago OT was jewish constitution and law book. It stated that we should cherish any life - even the life of your enemy. It stated that we should help the weak - a widow or an orphan or an alien.
              I know - you can say that OT states in many places that capital punishment should be used - but those were ancient laws - with the time there were new laws that proclaimed life sacred. Every man is created in the image of G-d.

              I do not believe in Jesus for I'm a jew. BUT I do believe that he existed, and that he was a great man, that tought other people very same things that we find in the OT - the most important things - altruism and compassion. He was a man of the great wisdom.

              Faith is your choise, but those pricipals are not. Those are the unspoken rules of the universe. And by breaking those principals we sin - sin against each other - and against G-d.

              "Try the Koran"
              Spirit wrote: "Not me, man..."
              Why is that?
              I'm familiar with the book in someway.. And I'm dissapointed... The story lines that we see in the OT were changed in very perverted way. And it may sound strange - but it seems empty.

              And I have some hard fillings about it - it is connected to our enemies in the war against terror. They take off man's head while holding and stating it...


              The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.
              You are right.... It is human.
              predudices against non Jews
              We do not pretend to be better or worse than others. We are flesh and blood - you punch me - i bleed, and then i bleed some more.

              But I do believe that we have a special role in this world. We were blessed and we were cursed to set an example for others. And so far we suffered greatly for our sins. And I hope that other people will not do the same mistakes we did. And we did many.
              I think that Jesus tought that a man should suffer for the other and do it with great love. And that's my believe about my people.

              (I remind you - it's my own believe - so don't judge me or the others for it)

              10ku
              Seek salvation, for the war is here... Deny nothing

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              • #97
                Regarding the 10 commandments:

                Originally posted by Spirit

                Faith is your choise, but those pricipals are not. Those are the unspoken rules of the universe. And by breaking those principals we sin - sin against each other - and against G-d.
                Sorry I totally disagree. A few of them might be good guidelines but several are simply immaterial *unless* you have faith in a diety (Commandments 1 thru 4 ) Number 5 is good advice assuming that the parents in question are worthy of that respect/honor. Number 6 is *way* too broad or, if it were to be taken literally, there sure wouldn't be many meat-eaters, would there? People who really took it literally wouldn't even kill plants. Number 7 might be good advice for the most part, but what if the other partners agreed? Number 8 is too broad, too, but not too objectionable. People seem to think that number 9 says that you shouldn't lie but that's not at all what it actually says. Number 10 tries not to be as broad as the others but falls the other way because the definition of 'neighbor' might be too narrowly defined.

                As I've said in other threads, there's only one sin in my universe and it really covers everything pretty well: Harming other people deliberately or through reckless negligence is a sin.

                Jan
                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                • #98
                  Besides the religion OT and Bible contain the laws that western civilization stands on. We can find there an answer to the question "What is it to be a human?" - human compassion, life saving, social rightness and love of humanity - those are the principals we raise our children on. Every nation, every constitution adopted those principals. We find 10 commandments in every law book of every state.
                  No it doesn't.

                  Our legal codes owe a Lot more to the Code of Hammurabi (oldest written Legal Code on the planet) and the laws of the Roman Republic (Before Christianity) than it does to any book of the Christian bible.

                  Code of Hammurabi

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                  • #99

                    I think there was a misunderstanding here.
                    I'm not saying that all 10 commandments are those principals...
                    I was talking about the things that we can learn from the OT.

                    And I'm not saying that the OT is the only source for thouse principals, hek - you can find those principal in every Babylon 5 book or movie

                    I'm talking about values that will stay the same for ever - like human compassion.
                    Seek salvation, for the war is here... Deny nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jan
                      Regarding the 10 commandments:



                      Sorry I totally disagree. A few of them might be good guidelines but several are simply immaterial *unless* you have faith in a diety (Commandments 1 thru 4 ) Number 5 is good advice assuming that the parents in question are worthy of that respect/honor. Number 6 is *way* too broad or, if it were to be taken literally, there sure wouldn't be many meat-eaters, would there? People who really took it literally wouldn't even kill plants. Number 7 might be good advice for the most part, but what if the other partners agreed? Number 8 is too broad, too, but not too objectionable. People seem to think that number 9 says that you shouldn't lie but that's not at all what it actually says. Number 10 tries not to be as broad as the others but falls the other way because the definition of 'neighbor' might be too narrowly defined.

                      As I've said in other threads, there's only one sin in my universe and it really covers everything pretty well: Harming other people deliberately or through reckless negligence is a sin.

                      Jan
                      Hmmm... Kosh would say You do not understand

                      Did you know that there are at least 2 place in the OT with the 10 commandments - and they are a bit different in every place.
                      Never try to read the OT as it is - word to word - but try to understand what does it want from us and who does it want us to be. Those 10 are old and unadequate with our world today. You are right - I'm not living by 10 commandments - but I live by their spirit, by the values that they convey.

                      Can you agree with me that most of the western countries cherish those values?
                      Is there any western country that it is moral or legeal to kill or to steal today?

                      And why are those values are eternal, that they are the unspoken rules of the universe? Because I see them every where.
                      (As I said - even in B5)

                      By the way - what about the 7 laws of Noah?
                      Last edited by Spirit; 11-11-2004, 10:42 PM.
                      Seek salvation, for the war is here... Deny nothing

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                      • And another thing...
                        There is an episode of B5 that stands for all that I believe in.

                        It is from season 2 - ep. 21 - Comes The Inquisitor.

                        I believe that it states that there is nothing valuable than life, and the only true reason to save a life shuold be the love of the life, the love for the other. (May be I'm wrong about the exact message...)

                        Can someone remind us ?
                        Seek salvation, for the war is here... Deny nothing

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                        • On the tossing of books from the Bible, AFAIK it was a council of Church elders and scholars deciding on which books were canon and which apocriphal.
                          Those that presented factual contradictions with each other or with the most accepted books, or showed a deviation from the doctrine were declared unworthy, the work of man, and not the inspired word of God.
                          The books that talked about the childhood of Jesus are an example, they mentioned that he made miracles, but that contradicts the canonical story that he only started his ministry in the wedding of Canaan, at the urging of his mother.
                          After the Refo:mation some protestant leaders reexamined some of those conclusions (IIRC some removed a book from the canon, others added one).

                          There was an older similar process for the Old Testament.

                          On the issue of translations: the Catholic Bibles I've seen all have footnotes which point out difficulties in translation and provide alternate interpretations when needed, even pointing out differing views when passages are not clear. They also provide notes that link together prophecies in the Old Testament to passages in the New Testament that are considered to be the fulfillment of them (and viceversa).
                          A conscientious and thorough translation by Bible scholars need not be considered so unreliable. There have been many efforts to go back to the original sources when available to make sure that the translation is teh very best possible.
                          Those being Catholic Bibles they also carry an imprimatur and nihil obstat (just like in medieval times) from a Cardinal (or Archbishop, can't remember) indicating that the version presented is consistent with the doctrine of the Church and can be considered reliable.

                          With that said I most point out that I don't consider the Bible the exact word of God. It may have been inspired by him, but we mere humans can't pretend to understand or encompass the mind of God.
                          The Bible may be the word of and all-knowing God but is the dumbed down version so we puny, non-all-mighty, humans can understand it.

                          There are important principles there, but is not to be taken literally.
                          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                          • BTW, I saw a program on the History Channel, which mentioned that the Jewish council that decided which books were canonical rejected those books that had the mythology of angels some have mentioned.
                            There exists too an interesting documentary on who wrote the Bible, it seems that most Bible scholars consider that the Pentateuch (first 5 books of OT) was written by at least two, maybe three different authors, none of which could have been Moses. This is why some of the stories are repeated in slightly different versions.
                            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                            • Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                              BTW, I saw a program on the History Channel, which mentioned that the Jewish council that decided which books were canonical rejected those books that had the mythology of angels some have mentioned.
                              There exists too an interesting documentary on who wrote the Bible, it seems that most Bible scholars consider that the Pentateuch (first 5 books of OT) was written by at least two, maybe three different authors, none of which could have been Moses. This is why some of the stories are repeated in slightly different versions.
                              Well - it's true. In Israel we learn at school about OT. But we do it from the side of science. Scientiests believe that the OT was written about 400 years after Moses by several people that lived in different times (hundreds years one from the other). As a pragmatic man and a man of science I do believe in that.

                              But my other part stays with the story of Moses .

                              And you are right - there was some council that decided for several centuries which books will be in and which will be out.

                              Non the less - those books have some nice things in them.
                              Seek salvation, for the war is here... Deny nothing

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                              • Originally posted by Spirit
                                Hmmm... Kosh would say You do not understand

                                Did you know that there are at least 2 place in the OT with the 10 commandments - and they are a bit different in every place.
                                Never try to read the OT as it is - word to word - but try to understand what does it want from us and who does it want us to be. Those 10 are old and unadequate with our world today. You are right - I'm not living by 10 commandments - but I live by their spirit, by the values that they convey.
                                Which is part of my problem with them. If they don't suit, then they need to be replaced. Just as Jesus came along and said (paraphrasing-no disrespect intended) that the Old Law was out and he was there to give the new laws, so then should whichever church leaders there are now.

                                Can you agree with me that most of the western countries cherish those values?
                                Sorry, no. Actions speak louder than words. While the ideal might be spoken, the actions tell otherwise.

                                Is there any western country that it is moral or legeal to kill or to steal today?
                                By individuals or governments? Again, it's a matter of interpretation, isn't it?

                                And why are those values are eternal, that they are the unspoken rules of the universe? Because I see them every where. (As I said - even in B5)
                                Don't understand that at all. If a value is to be understood, doesn't it need to be put into words? Or are you saying that the universe itself holds those values.

                                By the way - what about the 7 laws of Noah?
                                Dunno. If I've ever heard of them I don't remember.

                                Jan
                                Last edited by Jan; 11-12-2004, 07:46 AM.
                                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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