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Babylon 5, Great Maker, and Religion

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  • Spirit
    replied
    Originally posted by LightStorm
    1) I WISH that I could speak Hebrew! I have enough trouble carrying out a conversation in English, let alone a comparrison of views in extinct languages!!!
    2) Old (Hebrew) testament or new (mainly Greek) testament, you examine the information within them and make your choice - though I, being Christain, believe in the latter, I don't actually believe that the two contradict each other and that the older books and letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today.
    I agree with the fact that Bible and the OT have many things to teach us. Besides the religion OT and Bible contain the laws that western civilization stands on. We can find there an answer to the question "What is it to be a human?" - human compassion, life saving, social rightness and love of humanity - those are the principals we raise our children on. Every nation, every constitution adopted those principals. We find 10 commandments
    in every law book of every state. 2000 years ago OT was jewish constitution and law book. It stated that we should cherish any life - even the life of your enemy. It stated that we should help the weak - a widow or an orphan or an alien.
    I know - you can say that OT states in many places that capital punishment should be used - but those were ancient laws - with the time there were new laws that proclaimed life sacred. Every man is created in the image of G-d.

    I do not believe in Jesus for I'm a jew. BUT I do believe that he existed, and that he was a great man, that tought other people very same things that we find in the OT - the most important things - altruism and compassion. He was a man of the great wisdom.

    Faith is your choise, but those pricipals are not. Those are the unspoken rules of the universe. And by breaking those principals we sin - sin against each other - and against G-d.

    "Try the Koran"
    Spirit wrote: "Not me, man..."
    Why is that?
    I'm familiar with the book in someway.. And I'm dissapointed... The story lines that we see in the OT were changed in very perverted way. And it may sound strange - but it seems empty.

    And I have some hard fillings about it - it is connected to our enemies in the war against terror. They take off man's head while holding and stating it...


    The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.
    You are right.... It is human.
    predudices against non Jews
    We do not pretend to be better or worse than others. We are flesh and blood - you punch me - i bleed, and then i bleed some more.

    But I do believe that we have a special role in this world. We were blessed and we were cursed to set an example for others. And so far we suffered greatly for our sins. And I hope that other people will not do the same mistakes we did. And we did many.
    I think that Jesus tought that a man should suffer for the other and do it with great love. And that's my believe about my people.

    (I remind you - it's my own believe - so don't judge me or the others for it)

    10ku

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  • elver
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    "the letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today."Originally posted by lightstorm

    I mean no disrespect to your faith and I agree that both testaments "contain" alot which is of merit.

    The 10 commandments are still a good guide. The Song of Solomon, is beautifully written. And the actual teachings of Jesus if followed would make for a much better world than the one we live in.

    But also in the Bible there is so much which is nonsense, obsolete, contradictory and just plain evil.

    It was written by men, it isn't the word of God (or at least I sincerely hope not). The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.

    I've always thought ones relationship with the eternal to be a personal revelation. No instruction manual is required, just be polite to one another and try and do as little harm as possible.

    Personally I find Aesop's fables teach morality with greater clarity .
    You speak wisely

    Actually, Jesus had many followers. Many of whom wrote books about Jesus' work. Later, when christianity was made the dominant religion in the Roman empire (around the year 300AD), the Roman government chose which of those books to include in the bible. The ones that weren't included, of course, were about Jesus' more "mortal side", including his marriage with Mary Magdalene. The nonincluded ones were burnt, though some copies have been recovered.

    In other words, while the bible contains books by Jesus' followers, it's written by men and men often have different opinions of what is right and what is wrong. When the bible itself was put together, only those opinions were chosen that were beneficial to the government of that time.

    Interestingly enough, there exists some evidence that Jesus himself wrote about his own life in great detail. However, that particular book didn't make it into the bible and has not survived to this day. Make whatever conclusions you wish from that
    Last edited by elver; 11-11-2004, 10:22 AM.

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  • Shr'eshhhhhh
    replied
    "the letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today."Originally posted by lightstorm

    I mean no disrespect to your faith and I agree that both testaments "contain" alot which is of merit.

    The 10 commandments are still a good guide. The Song of Solomon, is beautifully written. And the actual teachings of Jesus if followed would make for a much better world than the one we live in.

    But also in the Bible there is so much which is nonsense, obsolete, contradictory and just plain evil.

    It was written by men, it isn't the word of God (or at least I sincerely hope not). The predudices against non Jews, women and homosexuals are human in origin.

    I've always thought ones relationship with the eternal to be a personal revelation. No instruction manual is required, just be polite to one another and try and do as little harm as possible.

    Personally I find Aesop's fables teach morality with greater clarity .
    Last edited by Shr'eshhhhhh; 11-11-2004, 08:05 AM.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    When a religious belief is not in the Bible it frequently comes from the Koran, the ban on drinking alcohol for instance.

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  • I love Lyta
    replied
    "Try the Koran"
    Spirit wrote: "Not me, man..."

    Why is that?

    Leave a comment:


  • DGTWoodward
    replied
    Originally posted by Spirit
    Shr'eshhhhhh
    Luicifer was the first of a new kind of angels... But he sinned and you know the rest of the story

    ----------------------------

    Actually it's contradictional. Angels unlike humans do not have a free will so they can't sin.. But some how they did... Nice thing to investigate... And by the way - it was misstranslation - the first thing created was the heaven and the earth.
    "Bereshit bara Eloh-m et ashamaim veet aarethz" - "in the beginning created G-d the heavens and the earth" - word to word.
    I love Lyta
    Nicely put :-)

    1) I WISH that I could speak Hebrew! I have enough trouble carrying out a conversation in English, let alone a comparrison of views in extinct languages!!!
    2) Old (Hebrew) testament or new (mainly Greek) testament, you examine the information within them and make your choice - though I, being Christain, believe in the latter, I don't actually believe that the two contradict each other and that the older books and letters of the OT contain fascinating and applicable principles for us even today.

    Leave a comment:


  • DGTWoodward
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    "If we are assuming that you are refering to the same Lucifer that is also known as Satan the Devil (althought I have heard him refered to as Set in other works, we do not know his actual name - as in the previous post these are not names in themselves. They are more like titles or descriptions of his character), then according to Bible scripture he was most definitely NOT the first act of creation of God. Why would a God motivated by love to create more life, make a creature like Lucifer? One who, with his own free will, chose to oppose God. Scripture tells us that God's first act of creation was 'Logos', the word (or mouthpiece - if you like) of God. Originally posted by Lightstorm.

    And as for why God would make a being that would oppose God through free will, Surely that same question could be asked about humanity too. According to the Bible man has been using his free will to defy God since Eden onwards.



    ___
    Choices, actions, consequences and responsibility....you are right, man has been doing just that.

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  • DGTWoodward
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
    Try the Koran.
    Thank you, never read it....I'd like to though.

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  • Spirit
    replied
    Shr'eshhhhhh
    Luicifer was the first of a new kind of angels... But he sinned and you know the rest of the story

    ----------------------------
    I had not heard that they did these other things and I wonder where you get this kind of information as none of it is from the old testament.
    Other holly books that have been long lost and lately rediscovered (partially) like the book of Raziel the angel, the book of Enoch.

    If we are assuming that you are refering to the same Lucifer that is also known as Satan the Devil (althought I have heard him refered to as Set in other works, we do not know his actual name - as in the previous post these are not names in themselves. They are more like titles or descriptions of his character), then according to Bible scripture he was most definitely NOT the first act of creation of God. Why would a God motivated by love to create more life, make a creature like Lucifer? One who, with his own free will, chose to oppose God. Scripture tells us that God's first act of creation was 'Logos', the word (or mouthpiece - if you like) of God.
    Actually it's contradictional. Angels unlike humans do not have a free will so they can't sin.. But some how they did... Nice thing to investigate... And by the way - it was misstranslation - the first thing created was the heaven and the earth.
    "Bereshit bara Eloh-m et ashamaim veet aarethz" - "in the beginning created G-d the heavens and the earth" - word to word.

    Try the Koran.
    Not me, man...


    Shaitan
    That's the way muslims call Satan...
    We call him - Satan...

    I love Lyta
    Nicely put :-)

    And by the way - I HATE my pc.... It rebooted while I was writing this post first time.... arrrgh.....
    so the answers were cut...
    Last edited by Spirit; 11-10-2004, 11:49 AM.

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  • I love Lyta
    replied
    "G-d created many angels to watch and manage this world. Some of them were the "watchers" of the human kind (they were called "the watchers"). But many of those angels saw beatifull women and took them as their wifes. Their children were giants, that devistated the Earth and terrorized the people. "

    I feel like being in the middle of a part of "God's Army".

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  • elver
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    The Word is God, God wasn't created he always existed, Lucifer, the bringer of light was the first of all angels. the first being other than God to exist. He is also called the Morning Star and is associated with the Planet Venus, In the early morning it is the brightest star in the sky but then out comes the sun and it's light banishes it.
    Ah. So you, too, spotted the symbolism in the 3rd Psi Corps book with Kosh being on Venus? :P

    The reason it was chosen by the early christians as a symbol for the devil was because it used to be a symbol for the woman among the nature-loving people of pre-christian era

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  • Shr'eshhhhhh
    replied
    "If we are assuming that you are refering to the same Lucifer that is also known as Satan the Devil (althought I have heard him refered to as Set in other works, we do not know his actual name - as in the previous post these are not names in themselves. They are more like titles or descriptions of his character), then according to Bible scripture he was most definitely NOT the first act of creation of God. Why would a God motivated by love to create more life, make a creature like Lucifer? One who, with his own free will, chose to oppose God. Scripture tells us that God's first act of creation was 'Logos', the word (or mouthpiece - if you like) of God. Originally posted by Lightstorm.

    The Word is God, God wasn't created he always existed, Lucifer, the bringer of light was the first of all angels. the first being other than God to exist. He is also called the Morning Star and is associated with the Planet Venus, In the early morning it is the brightest star in the sky but then out comes the sun and it's light banishes it. Just as Lucifer's brilliance is eclipsed by God's. Shaitan (or Satan) is the opposer, not of God (he still serves God) but of man, it his job to test the faithful with temptation. The Devil is the medieval mind trying to kill off the pagan gods like Herne and Pan, who had horns or antellers. By mixing Luicifer's pride with Shaitan's role of tempting man with the look of the old god's you get the Devil. Set was an Egyptian god, brother/murderer of Osiris . And as for why God would make a being that would oppose God through free will, Surely that same question could be asked about humanity too. According to the Bible man has been using his free will to defy God since Eden onwards.



    ___
    Last edited by Shr'eshhhhhh; 11-09-2004, 06:37 PM.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by LightStorm
    Though I have heard at least one of the other names you use for some of the angels (eg Azazel), I had not heard that they did these other things and I wonder where you get this kind of information as none of it is from the old testament.
    Try the Koran.

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  • DGTWoodward
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    Luicifer was the first being ever created, He was a bright immortal creature of light, He prompted the younger races to seek the knowledge of good and evil and was cast into a bottomless pit in a hellish domain populated by devils and demons. ('ang on that was Lorien wasn't it?)
    If we are assuming that you are refering to the same Lucifer that is also known as Satan the Devil (althought I have heard him refered to as Set in other works, we do not know his actual name - as in the previous post these are not names in themselves. They are more like titles or descriptions of his character), then according to Bible scripture he was most definitely NOT the first act of creation of God. Why would a God motivated by love to create more life, make a creature like Lucifer? One who, with his own free will, chose to oppose God. Scripture tells us that God's first act of creation was 'Logos', the word (or mouthpiece - if you like) of God.

    Leave a comment:


  • DGTWoodward
    replied
    Originally posted by Spirit
    Don't you think it's to long to put on the forehead?

    Another thing... Satan is not a private name of an angel, but is his "job" or "role".

    Many of them tought humans (women in most cases) various subjects - like how to use metal, how to use makeup (yep, angel named Azazel did this ), how to do sorcery, summon spirits and stuff like that.

    I remember only few of their names: Shemhazai, Azazel etc...

    Yes, this is true, the words Satan and Devil are also more like titles than names - as I understand it they have such meanings as resister (to God), liar, opposer etc.

    Though I have heard at least one of the other names you use for some of the angels (eg Azazel), I had not heard that they did these other things and I wonder where you get this kind of information as none of it is from the old testament.

    Leave a comment:

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