Babylon 5 - Mongoose RPG Books

[Apsu]

Hello to everyone !
Sorry if the question has already been asked.
I came accross several books about Babylon 5 published by Mongoose.
They are very thorough and detailed, and bring information that are not present in the TV show nor the novels.
What consideration should we bring to the information contained inside those books ?
Are they like the Star Wars EU, like "if it does not contradict the new movies, you can consider them canon, otherwise not" ?

[Jan]

What consideration should we bring to the information contained inside those books ?
Are they like the Star Wars EU, like "if it does not contradict the new movies, you can consider them canon, otherwise not" ?

While I'm not a gamer, I know that the RPG books generally fall into the 'fun, but not canon' category. I believe that Mongoose really wanted to be an official addition to the canon but for various reasons (not all the fault of Mongoose), that really never happened.

Glad to see you here!

Jan

[Looney]

the RPG books generally fall into the 'fun, but not canon' category..

That is what I have always heard. Sure wish I had known people back when they were coming out who could have taught me how to play and then played. I know everyone will say, "It is never too late.", but it is always too late for Looney.

But in all seriousness I look at them like the CCG game, even if I knew how to play there isn't a soul within I don't know how many miles who would or could play with me.

I have always wondered about the way they could work into the story. The original novels often upset me because I felt like they rarely tried to associate them with the show. If the game books were intended by the publisher to fit in, as Jan says, then I would love to see how they attempted it. I might have to look into this more if I remember to and find the time.

[Apsu]

I felt like they rarely tried to associate them with the show. If the game books were intended by the publisher to fit in, as Jan says, then I would love to see how they attempted it.

Yes they tend to fit perfectly into the B5 universe, minus certain parts where inconsistencies shows up afterwards.
They detail very precisely the governing systems of the Vorlon Empire and the Drakh Entire, and even offer answers to who was the Hand in Legend of Rangers or what was the Apocalypse Boxes in Crusade.
They really did an impressive job by creating a extended universe that, while not canon, does fit rather well into it.

[Looney]

So Apsu I think in this day and age we can call it Babylon 5 Alternate Universe or Babylon 5 Multi-Verse. Anyone have a better suggestion because I think we should make one of these two titles official? Since Babylon 5 is a WB show and WB has the DC Universe I think Babylon 5 Multi-Verse is probably a good fit.

Jan run this by JMS sometime and let him know it came from the Looney-Verse. (OH TRADEMARK COPYWRITE THAT ONE RIGHT NOW!!!!! We are all now living in the Looney-Verse!!!!! Sorry, but you know I am going to start using that all over the place when I refer to myself in the third person so you all may as well accept that you live there now.)

[Jan]

Jan run this by JMS sometime and let him know it came from the Looney-Verse.

<gentle, kind voice> Sorry hon, no can do. A: I quit taking messages for JMS a *long* time ago and B: Remember, his rule about no story ideas and C: He doesn't own the B5-verse. WB does. So even if I would, though I won't, it wouldn't matter.

[Looney]

<gentle, kind voice> Sorry hon, no can do. A: I quit taking messages for JMS a *long* time ago and B: Remember, his rule about no story ideas and C: He doesn't own the B5-verse. WB does. So even if I would, though I won't, it wouldn't matter.

Who's pitching a story idea?! I just meant calling the Monogoose RPG and other non-canon stories the Babylon 5 Multi-Verse.

[Apsu]

I'd rather go for "EU - Extended Universe", as it is not a parallel universe but more a possible extension that can or not be taken into account in the canon. Or maybe we could do a poll about it ?

Edit : to be more precise, I'd rather differenciate Moongoose for example, that fit into the canon in terms of logic and consistancy, with the first 6-7 novels, which I read and found very far from B5 universe.

[b5historyman]

I'd rather go for "EU - Extended Universe", as it is not a parallel universe but more a possible extension that can or not be taken into account in the canon. Or maybe we could do a poll about it ?

Edit : to be more precise, I'd rather differenciate Moongoose for example, that fit into the canon in terms of logic and consistancy, with the first 6-7 novels, which I read and found very far from B5 universe.

The early novels because of their content, aren't considered canon. The only canon novels from that early wave are The Shadow Within and then it's only 90% canon. The Anna Sheridan/Morden/Z'ha'dum plotline is, the Sheridan Agamemnon plotline isn't. To Dream in the City of Sorrows is 100% canon.

[Satai with Punsch]

I have bought the B5 roleplaying books I have come across and find them good. Sure some have material that I consider extended universe as they describe parts of the universe that never was touched upon in the series.

I also like the first run of the RPGs season books, they had compilations of the events in the seasons so the gamemaster knew what was happening in the background on a day-to-day, more or less, basis so the players adventures could interact with the plot of the show in different kinds of ways.

The second run of the RPG was a lot more focused on the extended universe, and I like those books because they fill in a lot of blanks.

[b5historyman]

I'd rather go for "EU - Extended Universe", as it is not a parallel universe but more a possible extension that can or not be taken into account in the canon. Or maybe we could do a poll about it ?

Edit : to be more precise, I'd rather differenciate Moongoose for example, that fit into the canon in terms of logic and consistancy, with the first 6-7 novels, which I read and found very far from B5 universe.

The upshot of the RPG and table top games is they aren't part of the canon. There's no "expanded universe" like there was with Star Wars (and we know what happened there) because it would mean that Joe would have to approve it in the first place then it would become canon, so not part of any "expanded universe".

Part of the issue as to why we have the situation with RPG is that Joe said they were moving away from the core of B5. He asked for changes to be made to the materials once Fiona came aboard as reference editor, sadly it didn't happen. AoG's licence wasn't renewed and we are fully aware of what went on with Mongoose.

[Satai with Punsch]

. AoG's licence wasn't renewed and we are fully aware of what went on with Mongoose.

I have no idea what went on with Mongoose, please elaborate.

If you do not like extended or expanded universe as a term for descriptions of the B5 universe that go beyond what JMS have written or approved, what would you like to call them? I have always associated the term extended universe with things that might not be canon at all, like fan-fic for example. But perhaps there is a better word for it?

[Looney]

If you do not like extended or expanded universe as a term for descriptions of the B5 universe that go beyond what JMS have written or approved, what would you like to call them? I have always associated the term extended universe with things that might not be canon at all, like fan-fic for example. But perhaps there is a better word for it?

I thought we all agreed that "Looney-Verse" was the perfect term.

Or like I said,

It is WB.
They own DC.
So it has to be . . . .

Babylon 5 Multi-Verse.

[Satai with Punsch]

I thought we all agreed that "Looney-Verse" was the perfect term.
...
Babylon 5 Multi-Verse.

Haha, I had forgotten that post. Sorry 'bout that. You are of course spot on

[Jan]

I have no idea what went on with Mongoose, please elaborate.

This is probably one of those 'truth in the middle' situations. I'm going to try to explain from that middle since I observed online and also communicated with the President (owner?) of the company.

Once upon a time, there was a company called Mongoose who did Role Playing Games and published guide books and rule books and stuff. And then Mongoose wanted to expand and approached WB for a license for both comics and novels and wanted WB to let them call them 'canon'. Reportedly, WB said that could be done. Shortly thereafter, though the comics part fell through because (again reportedly) DC claimed ownership to the rights to do comics (even though they apparently had no inclination to actually do any). But plans moved forward on the plans to do novels, some written by cast members. Mongoose proclaimed that the novels would be 'canon in every detail' and made some claims about JMS' involvement.

At some point two things happened which ruffled JMS'. One was that they asked for him to review the books and give notes and didn't mention payment. The other is that they planned to write novels based on the unproduced Crusade scripts which (reportedly) WB provided to Mongoose. There arose an online exchange where JMS declared that nothing in the novels would be considered canon and that he *really* didn't appreciate Mongoose using his material without so much as a word.

A while later, JMS agreed to take a look at the novels but then let fans know that they were very unprofessionally done and that they could only be considered licensed fan fiction and he couldn't endorse them in any way. Shortly after that, Mongoose dropped the idea of doing novels.

Was JMS right to be miffed? Yep, though, he may have been a bit harsh at first. Did Mongoose screw up? Yep, though it seems they were acting in good faith with WB, they really messed up by making proclamations that were over-blown to say the least and then tried to spin things to make themselves look better.

As an afterword, I read, or attempted to read, three of the novels. Two were completely unreadable. One (Claudia's) could probably have been a good read with some editing.

Probably more than you really wanted to know, huh?

ETA: One reason for all of the 'reportedly' comments is that much of this info came from Matthew Sprange who'd contacted me to give his side of things and offered proof of anything I might ask. He seems like a very nice man. And I got the impression that he meant well. But he never really proved much and my own feeble internet research found quite a few inconsistencies with what he said he remembered of events.