Delenn and Lennier

[Looney]

While I understand the sentiment, that's really not the way to look at it. For actors, what they can demand for their next job depends on what they got for their last job. JMS didn't seem to hold it against her at all. Always remember that acting is what they do for a living.

Oh I know how it works. I just "hope" that wasn't the reason. Hope = equals all things being ideal in this situation.

[Jan]

I choose NONE OF THE ABOVE. lol

Honestly I hope it wasn't the money. I hate thinking people involved with anything related to Babylon 5 lost out on being more involved with that Universe because they either wanted more or tried to maneuver for more money.

While I understand the sentiment, that's really not the way to look at it. For actors, what they can demand for their next job depends on what they got for their last job. JMS didn't seem to hold it against her at all. Always remember that acting is what they do for a living.

[Looney]

One answer was that she wouldn't be unavailable. Another answer was that they didn't offer enough money. Both answers come from people involved so take your pick.

I choose NONE OF THE ABOVE. lol

Honestly I hope it wasn't the money. I hate thinking people involved with anything related to Babylon 5 lost out on being more involved with that Universe because they either wanted more or tried to maneuver for more money.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I've been thinking the same thing during rewatches.

Yay! I'm not the only one.

I remembered that Talia was supposed to have died, but I didn't remember that Lennier had died, too. I'm glad he found something honorable to do again. Was he still a Ranger after the Sheridan incident?

[Jan]

Is there a reason why "Pat Tallman wasn't contracted"?

One answer was that she wouldn't be unavailable. Another answer was that they didn't offer enough money. Both answers come from people involved so take your pick.

It would have been nice closure but didn't really affect the script very much.

[Looney]

Though the script was rewritten when Pat Tallman wasn't contracted, originally the telepath in Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" was supposed to be Lyta and we'd have seen her call Lennier's name - and see the back of a Minbari fighting with a pike - just before the explosion at Psi Corps headquarters that Matheson flashed back to.

Is there a reason why "Pat Tallman wasn't contracted"?

[Melanie]

Lennier was too wrapped up in pleasing her and doing exactly what she wanted that there were times when he couldn't give her what she needed. It was the same thing in Comes the Inquisitor. He knew she was in trouble and needed someone to try and rescue her, but instead of being the one to go in and be her savior, he went to Sheridan and sent Sheridan in his place.

Lennier knew Delenn would be furious with him if he disobeyed her orders and he was too afraid of displeasing her to do so. Ironically, his sending Sheridan in is probably the reason they ended up together in the first place.

I've been thinking the same thing during rewatches.

[alpha128]

Though the script was rewritten when Pat Tallman wasn't contracted, originally the telepath in Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" was supposed to be Lyta and we'd have seen her call Lennier's name - and see the back of a Minbari fighting with a pike - just before the explosion at Psi Corps headquarters that Matheson flashed back to.

I wish we got see the original version of that script on screen, it would have been a nice bit of closure for those characters.

[Jan]

Although not directly stated, it's implied by the toast that in "Sleeping in Light" that Lennier had died at some point between 2262 and 2281.

Though the script was rewritten when Pat Tallman wasn't contracted, originally the telepath in Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" was supposed to be Lyta and we'd have seen her call Lennier's name - and see the back of a Minbari fighting with a pike - just before the explosion at Psi Corps headquarters that Matheson flashed back to.

[alpha128]

Yeah, I think Lennier was lying to himself when he told Marcus that his love for Delenn was something higher. He probably desperately wanted to believe it was true because how else could he go on day to day with all those feelings knowing she never truly saw him the way that he saw her.

I bet all that dishonesty built up and up inside of him until he couldn't hold it in any longer.

Yes, that's the way I see it.

I think it would have been nice had he gone back to Delenn after Sheridan passed though.

Although not directly stated, it's implied by the toast that in "Sleeping in Light" that Lennier had died at some point between 2262 and 2281.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

Yeah, I think Lennier was lying to himself when he told Marcus that his love for Delenn was something higher. He probably desperately wanted to believe it was true because how else could he go on day to day with all those feelings knowing she never truly saw him the way that he saw her.

I bet all that dishonesty built up and up inside of him until he couldn't hold it in any longer. I think it would have been nice had he gone back to Delenn after Sheridan passed though.

I imagine he could have changed a lot during those twenty years and Delenn still missed him a lot!

[Looney]

I think one need only look at Lennier's upbringing to understand his character and why he obsessively tries to please Delenn. Clearly he was raised in a structure of superiors and inferiors. She's Delenn coupled with the fact that she is his superior equals the guy never stood a chance. And just like the real world, love can make people do stupid things.

[alpha128]

I think it would have been a better ending for Lennier if he would have sacrificed himself in the star fire wheel, since he did finally do something in season 5 that Delenn did not approve of, but rather than it being something noble, it was something stupid, and then he ran off like a coward because he hadn't really grown at all.

Lennier's problems were exacerbated because he wasn't honest about the nature of his feelings for Delenn.

Lennier explains that his love for her is not romantic love, but more higher and more noble, a "pure, perfect love," that he knows can never truly be returned, since she is fated for another.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/synops/055.html

When Lennier tells Marcus that he knows Delenn is fated for another and he's accepted it in his heart, it's clear he's lying to both Marcus and himself.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I just re-watched Moments of Transition and it started me thinking about Lennier and his love for Delenn, and why she chose Sheridan over him. So these are the thoughts I formed.

Delenn needed Lennier in her life. She loved him and relied on him. He was there for her many times when nobody else was. She knew she could always count on him to do exactly as she desired.

And that was the problem, I think. His perfect obedience put him in a weaker, subordinate position, which didn't allow Delenn to ever look upon him as a desirable man or as her equal.

When she was in the Starfire wheel is a great example. Lennier knew as soon as she went in what she was going to do. He could have stopped her. He could have done what Neroon did, stepped in, pulled her out and taken her place. But he didn't because she had given him instructions that he had to obey.

Lennier was too wrapped up in pleasing her and doing exactly what she wanted that there were times when he couldn't give her what she needed. It was the same thing in Comes the Inquisitor. He knew she was in trouble and needed someone to try and rescue her, but instead of being the one to go in and be her savior, he went to Sheridan and sent Sheridan in his place.

Lennier knew Delenn would be furious with him if he disobeyed her orders and he was too afraid of displeasing her to do so. Ironically, his sending Sheridan in is probably the reason they ended up together in the first place.

*Even though I knew Delenn didn't need saving in that eppy and that Kosh was counting on it being Sheridan - she actually saved him - but it would have been really interesting had it been Lennier, instead*

Now he did almost sacrifice himself, the episode before, when he climbed up the crystal shaft to turn off the deadly gas thing. Lennier could be very admirable, strong, and brave. And he kept the truth from Delenn to protect her.

I think I'm remembering the Anla'shock episode where again Lennier had instructions, and even though he knew she was in danger, rather than stepping up and being her protector, he put the burden on Marcus because he wanted to protect her but just couldn't stand up to her, and risk her displeasure, even to save her life. Though, he did always find someone else to do it for him.

In some ways it makes his character more interesting that he has all this potential and this sort of fatal flaw. I think Delenn was just so important to him that he couldn't bear the thought of angering her, losing her respect, or upsetting her in any way.

But Delenn was a strong woman. She could handle it. And she was only attracted to men who were bigger than herself, who had destinies and plans and purposes that were beyond her. As it should be since Delenn would always have destinies, plans, and purposes beyond the man she loved, as well.

I think it would have been a better ending for Lennier if he would have sacrificed himself in the star fire wheel, since he did finally do something in season 5 that Delenn did not approve of, but rather than it being something noble, it was something stupid, and then he ran off like a coward because he hadn't really grown at all.

I also kind of ship Delenn and Neroon, and if there was going to be a love triangle, a genuine one between Delenn, Sheridan, and Neroon would have been more interesting.

I don't watch season 4 very often, so I'm having brand new thoughts about things that I'd never thought before. This also reminds me of the argument I read on FB that Lennier's actions in the end were off character, but I think they were actually spot on character-wise, sadly. And I love how deeply JMS went on characerization for the main characters, and how nobody was perfect and all good or all evil. Everyone had shades of grey with both dark and light tendencies and we got to see everyone's shades.