Katie lets Bryon have it

[Ubik]

Incidentally I am working my way through the 'Katie watches' vids today. Just background stuff to listen to whilst I work. Very amusing.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I think the single biggest problem with the telepath arc is that it goes on for far too long. The last time I rewatched Season 5, I was struck with the idea that "Strange Relations" felt like a natural end point. Including that episode, there had been six episodes with Bryon and followers. But then, Byron manages to escape Bester's clutches through the quarantine loophole, and the telepath arc goes on for another five episodes.

I'm pretty sure that if Season 5 had started, as JMS originally intended, with "Between the Darkness and the Light", "Endgame", and "Rising Star", the telepath arc would have been a lot shorter and less irritating.

Maybe.

I'm in the middle of "In the Beginning" now, and then I'll start season 5. I'll see how I feel about it this time around.

[alpha128]

I wonder if Byron would have received as much hate if Marcus would still have been alive? Maybe a lot of the initial vitriol heaved at him was subconscious because viewers missed Marcus and somehow felt Byron was trying to take his place?

I think the single biggest problem with the telepath arc is that it goes on for far too long. The last time I rewatched Season 5, I was struck with the idea that "Strange Relations" felt like a natural end point. Including that episode, there had been six episodes with Bryon and followers. But then, Byron manages to escape Bester's clutches through the quarantine loophole, and the telepath arc goes on for another five episodes.

I'm pretty sure that if Season 5 had started, as JMS originally intended, with "Between the Darkness and the Light", "Endgame", and "Rising Star", the telepath arc would have been a lot shorter and less irritating.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I wonder if Byron would have received as much hate if Marcus would still have been alive? Maybe a lot of the initial vitriol heaved at him was subconscious because viewers missed Marcus and somehow felt Byron was trying to take his place?

If Marcus was still around in season 5, maybe B would have irritated people a little less?

I might be totally off base though. Tis just a possibility, I thought of. Or maybe if his storyline would have been paired with a more exciting storyline, so that he was always the B story to the next shadow war or something. Although people still complain about the adorable zarg and it was just a b plotline, too, so that probably wouldn't have changed people's feelings too much.

[alpha128]

Like Ubik, I remember the bit about JMS and a cult, and comments about how he drew on that for the telepaths.

I just took this as a sign that Byron was trying to act like a Messiah, not that we were supposed to think of him as one. He wants people to like him, but he acts like a cult leader. The reactions to him make him seem like a well written cult leader. If everyone liked him the cult aspect would be lost. If he was more of an obvious villain like Bester he never would've gotten one of our main characters following him.

The cult aspect is not something I had previously considered. I suppose that JMS' characterization of Bryon might have been more nuanced than I originally thought.

Still, I think that JMS intended to portray Bryon in a sympathetic light.

[Looney]

The fact that what he's advocating for is not liberation or equality, but a form of nationalism, is quite significant..

I think Byron is a sort of villain for me because he does have a separatist mentality. He is also a villain for me because he helps and inspires Lyta to become what she becomes. Lyta is one of my favorite characters because ultimately she becomes the product of other heroes failures. It is just brilliant.

[Jonas]

I think Byron is almost too real. I do think the scenes would've benefited from more humour - the couple of times we see Byron smile he seems much more likeable - but he's very believable as a cult leader.

The fact that what he's advocating for is not liberation or equality, but a form of nationalism, is quite significant. (There are strong parallels to the character of Jonas in Sense8, except he's funnier and has a cool name.)

It might also have helped to have more secondary telepath characters, but that might have been a budget issue.

[Melanie]

I find a lot of things more enjoyable when I just ignore what I'm "supposed" to think and go with my own judgement.

We saw Byron interact with unnamed telepaths, Lyta and the command staff+ISA. The latter quickly decided that the guy is a problem. Some of his followers worshipped him, some didn't agree with not shooting people and broke off. Lyta was isolated when they moved into brown sector. She had recently been forced to rejoin the Psi Corps to be able to find a job to pay for her basic needs. The command staff who also fought in the Shadow war has a place to live paid for, as we saw when Sheridan made Earth force pay rent to themselves. Then thisguy shows up and says that she deserves to be treated better and Lyta gets iinvolved with him while Zack is shaking his head in the background.

To me this sounds a whole lot like a cult recruiting the easiest target who happens to fit in with them and then breaking into two parts. When Lyta says something about how telepaths are humans too Byron's response is that they're better. At this point he's already gotten her invested and involved with them by being the guy who says "I'm going to treat you with decency".

I just took this as a sign that Byron was trying to act like a Messiah, not that we were supposed to think of him as one. He wants people to like him, but he acts like a cult leader. The reactions to him make him seem like a well written cult leader. If everyone liked him the cult aspect would be lost. If he was more of an obvious villain like Bester he never would've gotten one of our main characters following him.

[Ubik]

He did. And it had a major impact on him. He goes into some detail in the introduction to "Walkabout" in the B5 script books and some of the aftermath of his leaving the commune in the Afterward to "Midnight Nation".

Much of what we saw in Byron's followers were things he experienced back then.

Ahh, good. Then my memory isn't failing me. This is one of those things that I really like about the script books. In fact, for me it's all about the introductory chapters, those cool behind the scenes stories that put it all into context.

[Jan]

Nah, I think it's very relevant to the character and audience perception. Didn't JMS spend some time in a commune / heavily faith based environment. I seem to remember something from one of the script book intros (could be mis-remembering this though).

He did. And it had a major impact on him. He goes into some detail in the introduction to "Walkabout" in the B5 script books and some of the aftermath of his leaving the commune in the Afterward to "Midnight Nation".

Much of what we saw in Byron's followers were things he experienced back then.

[WorkerCaste]

I do believe that JMS' intent was for the audience to like Bryon. After all, his original plan would have been for Ivanova to become romantically involved with him.

I'm not sure your second sentence establishes the first. Ivanova was supposed to fall for Byron, but I think we were supposed to be like the friends watching their buddy hook up with the absolutely wrong person. We would see that she was damaged after Marcus, and feeling that she missed an opportunity there, so she resolved not to do it again. Thus she falls for Marcus, a person with certain similarities to Marcus. Meanwhile, we're all in the wings crying "Nooo! Don't do it!"

That's my take on it anyways. Like Ubik, I remember the bit about JMS and a cult, annd comments about how he drew on that for the telepaths.

[alpha128]

As for the Byron character. I think the issue was one more of casting. His voice, and the delivery of some lines just didn’t work very well.

I thought Robin Atkin Downes did a fine job as Morann (one of the Grey Council) in "Atonement" and "In the Beginning", so I don't have a problem with him as an actor.

The issue could have been casting, writing, or something else.

[Triple F]

I can’t remember if it was ever addressed. But a couple of times the Narn desire for telepaths came up. Here’s a whole movement of rogue telepaths desperate for a home, and prepared to go to extreme lengths. Seemed like a perfect match up.

As for the Byron character. I think the issue was one more of casting. His voice, and the delivery of some lines just didn’t work very well.

[alpha128]

It's interesting. I never felt like the intent was for Byron to be liked by the audience. I always felt like he was there to exemplify a cult of personality, and that he was supposed to make your skin crawl.

I do believe that JMS' intent was for the audience to like Bryon. After all, his original plan would have been for Ivanova to become romantically involved with him.

How would the Byron story have been different if Claudia Christian hadn't left?
It's no secret that I would've had Ivanova becoming somewhat linked to Byron romantically (she would see him as a character like Marcus, which is why there are certain similarities, and she would take a chance only to find it wrong this time, underlining that she'd missed her one major opportunity thus far for a good relationship).
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/099.html#JS

[alpha128]

The singing telepaths... oh god... that should have been left on the cutting room floor.

You Vorlons should have removed their ability to sing while you were altering their DNA!