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**Delenn_of_Mir** · 03-05-2017, 11:03 AM

Byron's not that bad. He started out as Bester's protege, saw some terrible things, ran away and has tried his best to protect his family and do what he thinks is right. He wasn't perfect, and his plans weren't the best, but still he tried, and he was nice to Lyta.

**alpha128** · 03-05-2017, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Delenn_of_Mir View Post

Byron's not that bad. He started out as Bester's protege, saw some terrible things, ran away and has tried his best to protect his family and do what he thinks is right. He wasn't perfect, and his plans weren't the best, but still he tried, and he was nice to Lyta.

I think there's a difference between "Bryon: The way JMS intended", and "Bryon: The way he was actually perceived".

I understand what JMS was trying to do with Bryon. JMS wanted to make Bryon a charismatic, activist, pacifist - sort of like the Martin Luther King of telepaths. The problem is, in addition to that, Bryon came across as an arrogant snooty bastard. However, that's understandable given Bryon's history as a former Psi Cop.

Still, I think we were supposed to feel like Bryon's death was a great tragedy. But my reaction at the time was, "YES! That arrogant snooty bastard is off the show!!!"

**Jan** · 03-05-2017, 04:55 PM

I've always been puzzled by people's reaction to Byron. I don't think he's one of the great characters, mind, but I really don't understand the unreasoning hatred.

One of the best scenes, and certainly the most telling for Byron was his cry after discovering the Vorlon meddling with telepaths: "We could have been normal! We could have had lives!" Every rationalization he'd so carefully built up about the telepath superiority came crashing down and destroyed his world view.

**alpha128** · 03-05-2017, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Jan View Post

I've always been puzzled by people's reaction to Byron. I don't think he's one of the great characters, mind, but I really don't understand the unreasoning hatred.

Actually, if you view Katie watches Babylon 5, part 19, you'll see her hatred of Byron is not unreasoning at all. Katie says, "I was thinking about, while I was watching ("Strange Relations"), my different reactions to Bryon and Bester. I thought it was funny I hate Bryon and love Bester. But wait, Bester's a bad guy and I also hate Bester. But I think the distinction is that we're supposed to like Bryon, and I don't. While with Bester you're supposed to dislike him and I do. So that synergy of me actually reacting in the correct way to the character makes me like him."

Originally posted by Jan View Post

One of the best scenes, and certainly the most telling for Byron was his cry after discovering the Vorlon meddling with telepaths: "We could have been normal! We could have had lives!" Every rationalization he'd so carefully built up about the telepath superiority came crashing down and destroyed his world view.

That's a good point. I think that the other problem with Bryon is that his arc just goes on for too long. So by the time that scene happens, viewer fatigue has already set in and the scene doesn't have the impact that it should.

**Ubik** · 03-06-2017, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by alpha128 View Post

I think there's a difference between "Bryon: The way JMS intended", and "Bryon: The way he was actually perceived".

I understand what JMS was trying to do with Bryon. JMS wanted to make Bryon a charismatic, activist, pacifist - sort of like the Martin Luther King of telepaths. The problem is, in addition to that, Bryon came across as an arrogant snooty bastard. However, that's understandable given Bryon's history as a former Psi Cop.

Still, I think we were supposed to feel like Bryon's death was a great tragedy. But my reaction at the time was, "YES! That arrogant snooty bastard is off the show!!!"

The singing telepaths... oh god... that should have been left on the cutting room floor.

**WorkerCaste** · 03-06-2017, 03:50 AM

It's interesting. I never felt like the intent was for Byron to be liked by the audience. I always felt like he was there to exemplify a cult of personality, and that he was supposed to make your skin crawl. Maybe at first, you should see some of the charm his followers feel, but as the story line went on, I saw him as a warning to not fall prey to someone who, for example, was charming, who told you things you wanted to hear, who told you others were to blame for your lot in life, who would tell you that you were better than all those others, and who would tell you that they had a plan to bring you to your rightful place.

Hmmm. Did I just stray off topic???

**Ubik** · 03-06-2017, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post

It's interesting. I never felt like the intent was for Byron to be liked by the audience. I always felt like he was there to exemplify a cult of personality, and that he was supposed to make your skin crawl. Maybe at first, you should see some of the charm his followers feel, but as the story line went on, I saw him as a warning to not fall prey to someone who, for example, was charming, who told you things you wanted to hear, who told you others were to blame for your lot in life, who would tell you that you were better than all those others, and who would tell you that they had a plan to bring you to your rightful place.

Hmmm. Did I just stray off topic???

Nah, I think it's very relevant to the character and audience perception. Didn't JMS spend some time in a commune / heavily faith based environment. I seem to remember something from one of the script book intros (could be mis-remembering this though).

**alpha128** · 03-06-2017, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Ubik View Post

The singing telepaths... oh god... that should have been left on the cutting room floor.

You Vorlons should have removed their ability to sing while you were altering their DNA!

**alpha128** · 03-06-2017, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post

It's interesting. I never felt like the intent was for Byron to be liked by the audience. I always felt like he was there to exemplify a cult of personality, and that he was supposed to make your skin crawl.

I do believe that JMS' intent was for the audience to like Bryon. After all, his original plan would have been for Ivanova to become romantically involved with him.

How would the Byron story have been different if Claudia Christian hadn't left?
It's no secret that I would've had Ivanova becoming somewhat linked to Byron romantically (she would see him as a character like Marcus, which is why there are certain similarities, and she would take a chance only to find it wrong this time, underlining that she'd missed her one major opportunity thus far for a good relationship).
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/099.html#JS

**Triple F** · 03-06-2017, 05:26 AM

I can’t remember if it was ever addressed. But a couple of times the Narn desire for telepaths came up. Here’s a whole movement of rogue telepaths desperate for a home, and prepared to go to extreme lengths. Seemed like a perfect match up.

As for the Byron character. I think the issue was one more of casting. His voice, and the delivery of some lines just didn’t work very well.

**alpha128** · 03-06-2017, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Triple F View Post

As for the Byron character. I think the issue was one more of casting. His voice, and the delivery of some lines just didn’t work very well.

I thought Robin Atkin Downes did a fine job as Morann (one of the Grey Council) in "Atonement" and "In the Beginning", so I don't have a problem with him as an actor.

The issue could have been casting, writing, or something else.

**WorkerCaste** · 03-06-2017, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by alpha128 View Post

I do believe that JMS' intent was for the audience to like Bryon. After all, his original plan would have been for Ivanova to become romantically involved with him.

I'm not sure your second sentence establishes the first.

Ivanova was supposed to fall for Byron, but I think we were supposed to be like the friends watching their buddy hook up with the absolutely wrong person. We would see that she was damaged after Marcus, and feeling that she missed an opportunity there, so she resolved not to do it again. Thus she falls for Marcus, a person with certain similarities to Marcus. Meanwhile, we're all in the wings crying "Nooo! Don't do it!"

That's my take on it anyways. Like Ubik, I remember the bit about JMS and a cult, annd comments about how he drew on that for the telepaths.

**Jan** · 03-06-2017, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Ubik View Post

Nah, I think it's very relevant to the character and audience perception. Didn't JMS spend some time in a commune / heavily faith based environment. I seem to remember something from one of the script book intros (could be mis-remembering this though).

He did. And it had a major impact on him. He goes into some detail in the introduction to "Walkabout" in the B5 script books and some of the aftermath of his leaving the commune in the Afterward to "Midnight Nation".

Much of what we saw in Byron's followers were things he experienced back then.

**Ubik** · 03-06-2017, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Jan View Post

He did. And it had a major impact on him. He goes into some detail in the introduction to "Walkabout" in the B5 script books and some of the aftermath of his leaving the commune in the Afterward to "Midnight Nation".

Much of what we saw in Byron's followers were things he experienced back then.

Ahh, good. Then my memory isn't failing me. This is one of those things that I really like about the script books. In fact, for me it's all about the introductory chapters, those cool behind the scenes stories that put it all into context.

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