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  • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
    Guys (and girls ), you got me all wrong! I wasn't saying he was solely responsible for those 3 movies, but he was heavily involved in all of them (in Thor's case it at least warranted a story credit, which is more than he was given for WWZ), and all of them turned out equally horrible. It doesn't say anything decidedly negative about JMS himself, but it gets one thinking.
    I think what you meant to say is that they each turned out to not be to your taste. That doesn't mean they were objectively horrible even though they weren't really to my taste, either.

    Actually, he did get story credit back on WWZ after the post-shoot rewrite and re-shoot. Why does it get one thinking? About what? The entire archives here are about JMS showing people about the business of writing and making shows. Of all places, people should have informed opinions here, at least.

    Not meaning to pick on you, but that's a couple of very vague statements that need expansion in order to spark actual discussion.

    Jan, you know (at least I think so...) my opinion on comics. I don't consider them art, even remotely, just a form of mass-entertainment. But that's a pointless discussion, I apologize for bringing the topic up again.
    I don't recall what experience you base that opinion on but if you haven't read something along the lines of JMS' Midnight Nation or Book of Lost Souls, it's not speaking from a position of strength.

    Why not tell a new story in this universe? Set 10 years after the end of B5, it could work. It would be difficult to have the station itself play a major role in it, but it could still work.
    Wouldn't that make it even harder to draw in people unfamiliar with the original series? Doesn't really matter, though. His universe, his choice.

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Delenn_of_Mir View Post
      He could do an alternate timeline B5, so that the timeline we know and love still exists, but allows for a new version to be told.
      No matter what it turns out to be, I'd like to see it. If it were an alternate timeline B5, that'd be cool with me, (not that anyone needs my say-so! Ha!), but it would be even better if it somehow tied-in with the original B5, like a cross continuity story or something. My favourite, of course, would be a straight ahead continuation or prequel, (1000 years 'pre'!).

      Just my opinion though, other opinions are available.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sinclair's Fan View Post
        No matter what it turns out to be, I'd like to see it. If it were an alternate timeline B5, that'd be cool with me, (not that anyone needs my say-so! Ha!), but it would be even better if it somehow tied-in with the original B5, like a cross continuity story or something. My favourite, of course, would be a straight ahead continuation or prequel, (1000 years 'pre'!).

        Just my opinion though, other opinions are available.


        There was so much great story material hinted at for the future of the universe, a story about the rangers on the post-burn earth, rediscovering space flight and aliens.

        They could rebuild a new Babylon 5 and have a similar kind of story but set way, way in the future. I like that idea a lot. Set that far ahead viewers wouldn't need to have seen the original, and of course we do have a couple years at least to get classic B5 back on american tv. If we did get it back and a new generation watched and fell in love, Joe might even change his mind about the reboot.

        So many things could change between now and 2016. WB could get a new person-in-charge who loves Babylon 5 and who thinks JMS is a hero. It could happen.

        Faith Manages

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jan View Post
          Why does it get one thinking? About what? The entire archives here are about JMS showing people about the business of writing and making shows. Of all places, people should have informed opinions here, at least.
          OK, let me rephrase my humble uninformed opinion.

          Thor, Underworld 4 and Ninja Assassin contained - in my humble opinion - zero amount of what I'd call "B5 spirit"; hence they were not to my taste. While taste is subjective, I consider the lack of the aforementioned spirit in those movies to be quite objective.
          Changeling and Jeremiah contained some of this spirit, but not much. This judgement I also consider to be objective, but feel free to challenge it.
          WWZ remains a mystery since we haven't seen any of the original script.

          Now, whether JMS had enough creative control to imbue those projects with B5 spirit is irrelevant. Relevant is the fact that since 1999 (when Crusade ended its run), JMS hasn't been involved in any project that truly contained this spirit. Just to reiterate again, I'm not saying this was his fault, it's just the way circumstances shaped up.

          "It gets one thinking", whether, due to a severe lack of practice, JMS is still able to "connect" with this notorious B5 spirit.

          He's without doubt still a very proficient writer, but I would really hate to see the new B5 movie containing Amazing Sheridan or Teenage Mutant Garibaldi, because that's what he's been practicing the most lately, hasn't he? Again, I may be wrong, feel free to enlighten me on this point.

          Originally posted by Jan View Post
          Doesn't really matter, though. His universe, his choice.
          What was that all about?.. I'm not challenging his right to do whatever he wants with B5 universe. "Doesn't really matter" is really rude, though. I've been a B5 fan for the last 20 years, and my opinion does matter, just as yours or TripleF's.

          Ironically, this is exactly what B5 tries to teach you.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
            What was that all about?.. I'm not challenging his right to do whatever he wants with B5 universe. "Doesn't really matter" is really rude, though. I've been a B5 fan for the last 20 years, and my opinion does matter, just as yours or TripleF's.

            Ironically, this is exactly what B5 tries to teach you.
            My apologies, I wasn't aiming 'Doesn't really matter' at you or anybody in particular and didn't mean to be rude. It's simply that while it's fun to speculate to an extent, in this case, we pebbles don't get a vote on this one. JMS will write the film he thinks will be best commercially and for the B5 universe, and chances are, both aspects have to have equal weight.

            Believe me, I'm aware that individuals matter or I'd never have started the whole #FreeBabylon5 thing!

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
              ...
              Now, whether JMS had enough creative control to imbue those projects with B5 spirit is irrelevant. Relevant is the fact that since 1999 (when Crusade ended its run), JMS hasn't been involved in any project that truly contained this spirit. Just to reiterate again, I'm not saying this was his fault, it's just the way circumstances shaped up.

              "It gets one thinking", whether, due to a severe lack of practice, JMS is still able to "connect" with this notorious B5 spirit.

              He's without doubt still a very proficient writer, but I would really hate to see the new B5 movie containing Amazing Sheridan or Teenage Mutant Garibaldi, because that's what he's been practicing the most lately, hasn't he? Again, I may be wrong, feel free to enlighten me on this point.
              Given your aversion to comics it is probably no wonder that you cannot find the B5 spirit in his writing. I have read a few of those, and I actually *do* find that same spirit, even in the more commonly popular titles as Spiderman, not to speak about some of JMS' original comics work. Maybe not as pronounced, but JMS has his "B5" themes that are definitely present there.

              That is the first point where I would dispute your assessment.


              The second point is what is filming for Netflix right now : Sense8. OK, it is a cooperative effort with the Wachovskis, but I am pretty sure that the lack of practice you perceive will be eliminated by now, given that he is also writing those, but yes, it remains to be seen.

              While I actually do find some B5 spirit in Thor, and very much in Changeling it is, of course, a subjective assessment, indeed....
              Jan from Denmark

              My blog :

              http://www.babylonlurker.dk

              "Our thoughts form the Universe - they *always* matter"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                OK, let me rephrase my humble uninformed opinion.

                Thor, Underworld 4 and Ninja Assassin contained - in my humble opinion - zero amount of what I'd call "B5 spirit"; hence they were not to my taste. While taste is subjective, I consider the lack of the aforementioned spirit in those movies to be quite objective.
                We will have to agree to differ on Thor, because I love it. I think Branagh did a great job with the direction and it balances action, humour and pathos very nicely. In my opinion. It is probably my second favourite of the Avengers related movies, behind The Winter Soldier (The Avengers itself actually not appearing until 4th or 5th on that list).

                As previously pointed out Ninja Assassin was written to order as a huge rush-job, and Underworld 4 I thought sat nicely in the context of that particular franchise (which I don't think much of anyway).

                Changeling and Jeremiah contained some of this spirit, but not much. This judgement I also consider to be objective, but feel free to challenge it.
                WWZ remains a mystery since we haven't seen any of the original script.
                Loved Changeling and, to me, it showed JMS' strength as a writer, because I wouldn't have guessed from the handling of the subject matter that it was written by a TVSF writer at all.

                Jeremiah I also really liked, probably more so than Crusade.

                And JMS' World War Z scripts have been seen and were incredibly well received when they were leaked to the internet. The fact that the production company ditched them and went with something that resembles the book in name only is not his doing.

                He's without doubt still a very proficient writer, but I would really hate to see the new B5 movie containing Amazing Sheridan or Teenage Mutant Garibaldi, because that's what he's been practicing the most lately, hasn't he? Again, I may be wrong, feel free to enlighten me on this point.
                It is a shame that you seem to think JMS is only capable of writing one type of story at a time, as he has consistently shown throughout his career that this isn't the case.

                My real problem is all of this is the word "reboot". We don't really know what that means. There seems to be an assumption that it means "remake", but I am not sure it is that simple. I agree that remake of the B5 story is unnecessary, but surely it doesn't necessarily mean that.

                The B5 universe has been dormant in TV terms since 2002 (Legend of the Rangers), and in all forms since 2007 (Lost Tales). Rebooting could simply refer to re-starting with something appropriate given the ages of the original cast members ... after all, when I reboot my computer, I don't start again from scratch, I simply restart it in its current context.

                We won't really know what "Reboot" means here until we see what JMS has in mind more specifically.
                The Optimist: The glass is half full
                The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
                The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Delenn_of_Mir View Post
                  There was so much great story material hinted at for the future of the universe, a story about the rangers on the post-burn earth, rediscovering space flight and aliens.

                  They could rebuild a new Babylon 5 and have a similar kind of story but set way, way in the future. I like that idea a lot. Set that far ahead viewers wouldn't need to have seen the original, and of course we do have a couple years at least to get classic B5 back on american tv. If we did get it back and a new generation watched and fell in love, Joe might even change his mind about the reboot.

                  So many things could change between now and 2016. WB could get a new person-in-charge who loves Babylon 5 and who thinks JMS is a hero. It could happen.

                  Faith Manages
                  I like your thinking, Delenn.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                    Jan, you know (at least I think so...) my opinion on comics. I don't consider them art, even remotely, just a form of mass-entertainment. But that's a pointless discussion, I apologize for bringing the topic up again.
                    Well that's pretty insulting to the artists that work on them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                      Well that's pretty insulting to the artists that work on them.
                      And why exactly? It sure isn't art in its traditional form, and how you perceive non-traditional forms is entirely up to you. Many people don't consider movies (much less TV series) art, do you think it's insulting to directors? Many people don't consider photography art, do you think it's insulting to photographers? Finally, even within the traditional boundaries, many people disregard certain painting styles as art. It's entirely up to them. I won't even start talking about music in this context.

                      As a general observation, people on this board do get insulted pretty easily. The recipe for correct behavior seems to love comics (because JMS does them), know by heart as many statements by "The Great Maker" as possible (because JMS doesn't make mistakes and thus is the source of some form of ultimate wisdom) and hate WB.

                      And while I think JMS is a genius, and I do despise WB (hate comics though), I cannot help but notice that some discussions on this board take on all-too-familiar forms displayed by some cults.

                      Thus you're all sinners, my brothers and sisters, and your penance is an immediate re-watch of B5. I'm going to do that anyway.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        And why exactly?
                        Let's see I dedicate hours upon hours per week to my craft, which happens to be comics, and perhaps go to art shows and other stuff many times a month, put my work out on the line and let myself be vulnerable for my own work and someone tells me it's not art? You better believe that's insulting.

                        Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        It sure isn't art in its traditional form, and how you perceive non-traditional forms is entirely up to you.
                        Sorry, art is not "whatever it is to you." You may not appreciate art in all its forms, but that doesn't make it *NOT ART*.

                        Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        Many people don't consider movies (much less TV series) art, do you think it's insulting to directors?
                        Yes.

                        Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        Many people don't consider photography art, do you think it's insulting to photographers?
                        Yes.

                        Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        Finally, even within the traditional boundaries, many people disregard certain painting styles as art. It's entirely up to them. I won't even start talking about music in this context.
                        *Appreciation* is up to them. *Definition* is not.

                        Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                        The recipe for correct behavior seems to love comics (because JMS does them)
                        REALLY? JMS is the source of why I like comics? Not the hundreds of thousands of comics written before Joe even touched a pen?!?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by strashiLOL View Post
                          As a general observation, people on this board do get insulted pretty easily. The recipe for correct behavior seems to love comics (because JMS does them), know by heart as many statements by "The Great Maker" as possible (because JMS doesn't make mistakes and thus is the source of some form of ultimate wisdom) and hate WB.
                          Where on earth are you getting that from? The only one here who can quote JMS at the drop of a hat is me! And that probably has a lot to do with the fact that I went through all of his posts multiple times when working on the 'Asked & Answered' series. Several of us can quote B5 extensively, too. Nothing unusual about that.

                          Nobody here has ever said JMS doesn't make mistakes, either. Nor does anybody hate WB. Roll our eyes at their odd corporate structure, yeah. But hate? Not at all.

                          And while I think JMS is a genius, and I do despise WB (hate comics though), I cannot help but notice that some discussions on this board take on all-too-familiar forms displayed by some cults.
                          Why do you despise WB? And exactly what cult-like behavior do you detect other than a tendency (for me, at least) to trust that whatever JMS writes will be worth the time and money to experience? That's experience, not blind faith.

                          BTW, what's art in its 'traditional form'? There are so many forms of art, I don't think there *is* a traditional form. And I've seen some comic art that can tell wonderful stories without words at all and evoke incredibly strong emotion. Isn't that what art's all about?

                          Jan
                          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                          Comment


                          • @ JoeD80
                            Before responding to your post, let me clarify something.

                            I'm not trying to insult you in any way. Any person working on the graphical side of a professional-level comic is clearly an artist by virtue of possessing necessary technique and creativity. So you are an artist in my eyes, or in anyone's eyes, for that matter. However, I personally do not consider your primary output (i.e. comics) to be art.

                            There's nothing insulting or humiliating about that. Comics are you trade, something you earn money for. To provide you with an analogy, Bach wrote lots and lots of music; he was a working musician, and while a major part of his output was indeed Art with a capital "A", many pieces were created because music was his trade and he needed, putting it bluntly, to eat and feed his children.

                            Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                            Let's see I dedicate hours upon hours per week to my craft, which happens to be comics, and perhaps go to art shows and other stuff many times a month, put my work out on the line and let myself be vulnerable for my own work and someone tells me it's not art? You better believe that's insulting.
                            Let's see indeed. A journalist writing a weekly column dedicates hours upon hours per week to his craft - check. Goes to whatever shows journalists go to - check. Puts his work out on the line and lets himself be vulnerable for his own work - check. Yet he does not produce art.

                            A programmer collaborating with clients dedicates hours upon hours per week to his craft - check. Goes to programming shows - check. Puts his work out on the line and suffers through extreme forms of humiliation - check. And yet a programmer also does not produce art.

                            A research scientist dedicates hours upon hours per week to his craft - check. Goes to scientific symposiums & conferences - check. Puts his work out on the line, lets himself be vulnerable, suffers extreme humiliation and, if lucky, envy - check. And yet not even a research scientits produces art.

                            I'm going to tell you a terrible secret. We all, at least most of us, dedicate 40 hours per week to our "craft", put our work out on the line, suffer through deadlines and various forms of humiliation. We do this for one simple reason - we're professionals in our respective fields.

                            Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                            *Appreciation* is up to them. *Definition* is not.
                            If it's a question of definition, who's going to define what's art and what's not?

                            Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                            REALLY? JMS is the source of why I like comics? Not the hundreds of thousands of comics written before Joe even touched a pen?!?
                            I was not talking about you, since you were not the only one participating in this discussion.
                            Last edited by strashiLOL; 08-04-2014, 03:30 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Attempting to tell people that their creative output is not art (by some unexplained and indefensible definition of art) is neither helpful nor particularly wise when regarded in historical context. This is the same logic by which science fiction such as Babylon 5 has so often been considered not to be art, and by which a million critics have embarrassed themselves to posterity. So many great works of revolutionary art were dismissed as "not art" by someone in their own time - especially when they were created in a then-unfamiliar medium.

                              As for JMS, the one movie that he's written that was actually an original screenplay and produced as intended - Changeling - was absolutely excellent, and definitely contained much that one might associate with Babylon 5: themes of hope, courage, government corruption, the power of the individual, people standing up for what's right.
                              Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jonas View Post
                                As for JMS, the one movie that he's written that was actually an original screenplay and produced as intended - Changeling - was absolutely excellent, and definitely contained much that one might associate with Babylon 5: themes of hope, courage, government corruption, the power of the individual, people standing up for what's right.
                                That one StrashiLOL allows as being 'as good' as B5. Given the difficulty of the subject matter, I'd go so far as to say it was better. B5 was an excellent but fairly straightforward space opera. Changeling took investigative reporting to even uncover the story and tremendous skill to translate it on to the screen.

                                Jan
                                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                                Comment

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