Babylon 5 Movie through Studio JMS

[Ubik]

That raises a question (and somebody will have to find out from the WGA, I imagine): JMS has always used the terms 'movie' and 'feature film'. Now I know that a 'TV movie' has an entirely different definition (and pay scale) but I don't know what exactly is defined as a movie or feature and whether they actually have to appear in theaters.

Anybody wanna take that one on?

As far as I know a 'feature film' is defined by its running time. According to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, American Film Institute, and British Film Institute, a feature film runs for 40 minutes or longer, while the Screen Actors Guild states that it is 80 minutes or longer.

This seems to be the only stipulation attached to the term.

[Jan]

If you already own the movie rights, can write the script and have an inexpensive distribution system – ie online (not even necessarily via the likes of Amazon Prime or Netlfix as their just wannabe groups trying to be the virtual equivalent of brick and mortar studios).

That raises a question (and somebody will have to find out from the WGA, I imagine): JMS has always used the terms 'movie' and 'feature film'. Now I know that a 'TV movie' has an entirely different definition (and pay scale) but I don't know what exactly is defined as a movie or feature and whether they actually have to appear in theaters.

Anybody wanna take that one on?

[Triple F]

On a further tangent here... and am kinda thinking out loud, so please don't shoot me down in flames:

I do wonder if 'box office' results are just a bit silly these days, when you can release to an equally global audience directly online.

It's been mentioned and dismissed before, but *cough* Veronica Mars film *cough*. Sure, that and the potential B5 feature are two fundamentally different beasts as JMS has dismissed crowdfunding as a viable option.

I've seen some utterly superb crowdfunded productions. Given B5 was so pioneering with its meagre budget back in the day, I do wonder where that spirit of innovation has gone? I fully appreciate no one wants to stoop to Lost Tales levels of cheapness; an empty B5 is no B5 at all, but there must be a middle ground here. I do admire JMS keeping to 'we do it right or not at all' dictum, but part of me wonders if that does somewhat steer us towards 'not at all'.

It is a bit of circular logic in some regards. To make a successful movie you need to spend 100+ million to attract big talent actors, directors etc., in order to make it successful enough to earn the 100+million to pay for the big named talent…… wtf?!

But then, what is the motivation behind a movie. Is it just to make millions off box-office receipts, or is it to tell a good story – and make a few bucks off it at the same time, hopefully. If you already own the movie rights, can write the script and have an inexpensive distribution system – ie online (not even necessarily via the likes of Amazon Prime or Netlfix as their just wannabe groups trying to be the virtual equivalent of brick and mortar studios). Then that does remove some sizeable chunks of overhead. Making producer deals with actors and all kinds of key personnel (where they get a percentage of profits rather than getting paid entirely up front) really starts to take huge chunks out the overheads… Assuming you can find people who believe enough in the project to take that risk, of course.

It's doable, or at least something is doable, maybe not for quite at Veronica Mars money, but not a completely out of reach extension of that. Planned properly and well executed, taking as long as it takes, 10 million is a LOT of cash. Which in itself would almost certainly be more than enough to generate some professional funding if needed. Besides, didn’t jms already indicate he could generate a few 10’s of millions, but that’s not enough on it’s own - which is why he’s hoping StudioJMS gets a bit more street cred in order to raise 100+ million….. I might be misremembering that.

One of the things that didn’t make it into the interviews on the scrolls is that many of those spoken to view what’s going on within quality fan productions as a good thing – and know that the studio system has to adapt if it wants to stay relevant and a player. We’re basically in the early stages of a fundamental shift, which is empowering individuals and small groups, in how movies are made. And many within the industry not only know it, but welcome it as they want to do it themselves. It’s those a bit higher up, that are dragging their feet, unsure and more than a little nervous about what direction to take.

Perhaps a more relevant example is something like Riddick. Vin Diesel wanted that made, to the point where he mortgaged his own home according to some reports. Either way he invested a lot of time and effort into pushing it on to the screen. The films reported budget ended up being a mere (he says drooling at the thought) 38 million, and took 100 million in box office alone. So without tv, download, DVD or Blue ray sales a relatively small budget film can still be profitable while looking good. 38 million is still more than the optimistic 10 million which a fund raiser might raise, but then is 10 million optimistic – fund raising has become a far more familiar concept these days….. But what harm would there be to stick a toe in that particular hot tub of an idea….. Someone has to be the first to do it – just like someone had to be the first to use CGI developed in a guys back bedroom which sparked the revolution in VFX production we have now. It was always coming but someone had to be first…… and if it didn’t pan out, what would be lost?

[sense8ional]

Netflix started making original movies but I believe that their most expensive one is "only" $60M and stars Brad Pitt.. (War Machine).

JMS has a working relationship with Netflix but I can't see them spending $100M on B5 and I don't even know if JMS' theatrical rights would cover a Netflix original movie.

Lastly, JMS said he could get $60M today anyway.. he's just aiming higher than that.

[Ubik]

On a further tangent here... and am kinda thinking out loud, so please don't shoot me down in flames:

I do wonder if 'box office' results are just a bit silly these days, when you can release to an equally global audience directly online.

It's been mentioned and dismissed before, but *cough* Veronica Mars film *cough*. Sure, that and the potential B5 feature are two fundamentally different beasts as JMS has dismissed crowdfunding as a viable option.

I've seen some utterly superb crowdfunded productions. Given B5 was so pioneering with its meagre budget back in the day, I do wonder where that spirit of innovation has gone? I fully appreciate no one wants to stoop to Lost Tales levels of cheapness; an empty B5 is no B5 at all, but there must be a middle ground here. I do admire JMS keeping to 'we do it right or not at all' dictum, but part of me wonders if that does somewhat steer us towards 'not at all'.

[Ubik]

All good points Triple F. I know there's a massive audience in, for instance, Russia that loved B5. Same goes for a lot of eastern Europe.

If I am brutally honest I've found most 'fandoms' to be a bit cringy and awful. I tend to avoid them. This forum is small enough, and well mannered enough that I don't really count it as 'fandom'. It's the B5 FB groups that tend to make my blood boil more often than not, and I frequently don't see eye to eye with that kind of larger fandom. Fan entitlement is rife, facts are often wrong or misreported and god forbid you are able to have a good laugh at certain aspects of the show you love! At heart I guess I still see myself as a casual B5 fan too.

It's a really hard thing to stick a pin in, but we know the DVD box sets sold well in their heyday. As has been said before, more streaming options would good to attract new viewers.

In the end I don't have the slightest idea if a B5 movie is financially feasible or not. It's about the only tangible B5 thing we have left to discuss or argue over! Hahahaha... fandom...

[Triple F]

In the grand scheme of things B5 really isn't that popular or well acknowledged in most contemporary 'geek' circles.

Exactly.

I’ve only got my own experience to fall back on here but there’s a problem basing opinions on what the geek culture does. Active fan or pop/geek culture doesn’t necessarily represent viewership. Virtually everyone I know has a copy of the DVD box sets – from professional couples to little old ladies. Yet none of them ever take part in, or search out, the fandom. They just liked the story.

I’m part of that group – coming on the web to start what eventually became B5Scrolls – I can’t stress enough how the very concept of fan rivalries, for example, jumped out at me as alien, new and ridiculous – even though I’ve enjoyed sci-fi since being a kid. For long enough I thought it was a bad joke bouncing around folks who liked sci-fi. But it’s not only real, but an everyday part of the fan culture for many…… Fan cultures (all fan cultures) – do not reflect the opinions of the bulk of viewers. Because the bulk of viewers have little to no idea of the sometimes ridiculous stuff bouncing around this relatively small cliche of people.

Was B5 as popular as Star Trek – on first run viewing figures alone, nope not even close. But the little we know of DVD sales indicates it’s popular enough. Either way, there’s literally (at the very least) MILLIONS of people who watched and enjoyed the show, something which (even at it’s peak)the few thousand active online fans often seem to forget – because they’re outnumbered by the active Trek or Wars fans (two fandoms which had been well established long before B5 was even conceived).

The problem for a B5 movie is that big – silent majority of people, to give them a name – are casual fans (there’s another name for them). So getting them off their backsides and into the theatres is unlikely to happen. It’s a bit like the firefly movie (based on a show that got cancelled after 13 episodes). Didn’t do too well in the cinema but made money when it hit the DVD shelf.

[Technomage-Galen]

Personally while in real life I never heard anyone mentioning Babylon 5, online I've always been reading largely good things about the show in the various communities I've been a part of with some calling it their favorite space scifi show.

That being said I'd definitely say it's kind of an obscure show today, but that's at least partly because it's not on most (any?) streaming Netflix-like sites and the DVDs are ancient as well. I know it's available for purchase on Amazon Instant Video for example but that's not quite the same as having it available on Netflix. A re-release of B5 is long overdue and they can absolutely do quite a bit better than the currently available DVDs (perfect.. no, better.. yes they can) without breaking the bank, contrary to popular belief.

IMO, no amount of "Street Cred" is going to get a Babylon 5 movie made. Even the best screenwriters and directors can put out a total box office stinker. Even people like Ridley Scott and Steven Spielberg have laid some eggs.

My point is that even if he has multiple shows doing well, it's no guarantee investors are going to give him 150M for a B5 movie.

I think his best bet is to come out with a knockout script that takes place in the B5 universe and could potentially become a multi-film property. Pitch it to WB, and convince them to put B5 back on TV and Netflix as part of the marketing strategy.

[sense8ional]

Personally while in real life I never heard anyone mentioning Babylon 5, online I've always been reading largely good things about the show in the various communities I've been a part of with some calling it their favorite space scifi show.

That being said I'd definitely say it's kind of an obscure show today, but that's at least partly because it's not on most (any?) streaming Netflix-like sites and the DVDs are ancient as well. I know it's available for purchase on Amazon Instant Video for example but that's not quite the same as having it available on Netflix. A re-release of B5 is long overdue and they can absolutely do quite a bit better than the currently available DVDs (perfect.. no, better.. yes they can) without breaking the bank, contrary to popular belief.

[Ubik]

Is it a joke in The Big Bang Theory? I don't think so. From what I recall everyone in the group, except Sheldon, loves Babylon 5. I don't see that as a joke since the other members of the group are more toward the norm of society than Sheldon. If anything I think that says The Big Bang Theory is proclaiming Babylon 5 is a great show. I think it is high time The Big Bang Theory had some B5 guest stars that Sheldon could declare are his enemies.

None of those shows really rag on B5 too badly, but it is used as a touchstone and as a 'marmite' show. Big Bang Theory seems to operate on an 'insert nerd reference' style of humour which bugs the hell out of me. So I think it's part of the wider 'joke' which forms the show's DNA. Personally, I despise it, it takes nerd culture and appropriates it for the cheapest of laughs.

Even with Spaced, in context the character is doing it to get fired from his job, so insulting B5 is clearly high treason! The sword cuts both ways. But people always remember the one liner "Babylon 5 is a big pile of shit". In context it's very funny, and knowing, but a lot of people forget the context and only the statement remains!

Regardless of bias, B5 has become a bit of a pop culture footnote and occasional reference used for humorous purposes.

[Looney]

B5 has been the brunt of enough pop culture jokes, (Spaced, Big Bang Theory, and Breaking Bad)

Is it a joke in The Big Bang Theory? I don't think so. From what I recall everyone in the group, except Sheldon, loves Babylon 5. I don't see that as a joke since the other members of the group are more toward the norm of society than Sheldon. If anything I think that says The Big Bang Theory is proclaiming Babylon 5 is a great show. I think it is high time The Big Bang Theory had some B5 guest stars that Sheldon could declare are his enemies.

[Ubik]

To be honest, much as I love the show, I don't think Babylon 5 is really all that popular or well-known these days, certainly not to the degree where it would make sense to use it to promote Sense8. It doesn't have the place in geek culture of, say, Firefly. Given the involvement of the Wachowskis, and it being a Netflix production, I'm not sure that the minor press generated by the idea of B5 movie would be particularly significant, PR-wise.

In the grand scheme of things B5 really isn't that popular or well acknowledged in most contemporary 'geek' circles. When i name drop B5 as a show I love in conversations with my friends, I generally have to defend it, or talk them into checking it out.

B5 has been the brunt of enough pop culture jokes, (Spaced, Big Bang Theory and Breaking Bad) that most people just assume it's really bad and corny. Their loss, but that's the general preconception you're up against. The slightly uneven nature of S1 also does little to help that, and without a bit of hand holding and assurance that 'it gets a lot better', most people never get far enough to appreciate how great it is.

It's a shame, but a B5 movie is going to be a hard sell regardless of elevated street cred or not. More obscure things have been rebooted into films though!

[Jonas]

To be honest, much as I love the show, I don't think Babylon 5 is really all that popular or well-known these days, certainly not to the degree where it would make sense to use it to promote Sense8. It doesn't have the place in geek culture of, say, Firefly. Given the involvement of the Wachowskis, and it being a Netflix production, I'm not sure that the minor press generated by the idea of B5 movie would be particularly significant, PR-wise.

[Triple F]

I don’t think that Sense8 was viewed as putting him over the edge as far as “street cred” for studio jms goes….. I imagine it’s viewed as a step towards it though. The confident no nonsense wording of the announcement of a B5 movie and the timetable behind it – including that a script would have been written by now – was to get folks to sit up and notice what he was saying at that comic con…. And it worked, there were hundreds of articles on it, which also mentioned his new project, Sense8…… Was that announcement to get column inches for Sense8?….. I’m on the side of the fence that says, yeah, probably. He’s a producer who knows how to work the system and knows full well news of any kind of movement relating to Babylon 5 will generate interest.

Agree or not, Babylon 5 is his signature piece and that, even now, is of more interest to more people than anything else he might want to talk about. Or at least, it will generate more (mainstream) column inches than something like Sense8.

The quote you pointed out Jan, is of course correct. But the sentence that you missed out immediately following it says this (emphasis added by me)…..

Here’s the plan: We’re going to have, through Studio JMS, at least two, maybe three TV series on the air next year. We’re going to have at least one or two movies going ahead. And we’ll use that to parlay serious investment in the studio. I’m not talking Kickstarter, I’m talking about one hundred million dollars, two hundred million dollars; we already have people who are lined up and interested in doing that.”

It’s that statement that a script was going to be written, and folks interested in backing a B5 movie are already lined up which makes the more recent one (two years later) so much of a downer. Yes, the plan was to get stuff out by now, and that hasn’t happened yet.…… But while I might not necessarily agree with it….. I can certainly see why some wish he wouldn’t say anything if it was so dependant (and vulnerable) to ifs and maybes.

Which again, makes such a confident – it’s going to happen - announcement seem all the more like it was motivated by generating column inches for sense8.

I know saying that suggests jms is being manipulative…. Well, what’s wrong with that!? He’s an executive producer with his own production company, and he’d be a piss poor one if he never used the media to best advantage.

[sense8ional]

Sense8 is popular enough going by the number of votes on imdb and the activity I've seen on forums, social media, etc. Not a gigantic success, but certainly bigger than some other shows. Granted it has a pretty big budget so its fairly decent popularity just might not be good enough for a third season or whatever (let's hope that's not the case), but that's beside the point of "building street cred".

I also hope for better reviews for the second season now that reviewers are (hopefully) familiar with it, because quite a lot of the initial reviews were mixed or negative because "it just doesn't make sense". I'm sure if they eventually watched the rest of the episodes they must have understood that it makes perfect sense, so the next season should review better if it retains the same quality. (And I hope if they didn't watch the rest of the episodes they won't review the second season because that would be beyond idiotic......) Better reviews too will help build street cred.

But more than anything else what would help would be JMS making a movie, even if it's not high budget. If he directs it, even if he has no intention to direct the B5 movie, even better for him (assuming it is successful).

The Flickering Light was shelved to make Sense8. Maybe he should unearth it.