Babylon 5 Movie through Studio JMS

[Looney]

B5 has been the brunt of enough pop culture jokes, (Spaced, Big Bang Theory, and Breaking Bad)

Is it a joke in The Big Bang Theory? I don't think so. From what I recall everyone in the group, except Sheldon, loves Babylon 5. I don't see that as a joke since the other members of the group are more toward the norm of society than Sheldon. If anything I think that says The Big Bang Theory is proclaiming Babylon 5 is a great show. I think it is high time The Big Bang Theory had some B5 guest stars that Sheldon could declare are his enemies.

[Ubik]

Is it a joke in The Big Bang Theory? I don't think so. From what I recall everyone in the group, except Sheldon, loves Babylon 5. I don't see that as a joke since the other members of the group are more toward the norm of society than Sheldon. If anything I think that says The Big Bang Theory is proclaiming Babylon 5 is a great show. I think it is high time The Big Bang Theory had some B5 guest stars that Sheldon could declare are his enemies.

None of those shows really rag on B5 too badly, but it is used as a touchstone and as a 'marmite' show. Big Bang Theory seems to operate on an 'insert nerd reference' style of humour which bugs the hell out of me. So I think it's part of the wider 'joke' which forms the show's DNA. Personally, I despise it, it takes nerd culture and appropriates it for the cheapest of laughs.

Even with Spaced, in context the character is doing it to get fired from his job, so insulting B5 is clearly high treason! The sword cuts both ways. But people always remember the one liner "Babylon 5 is a big pile of shit". In context it's very funny, and knowing, but a lot of people forget the context and only the statement remains!

Regardless of bias, B5 has become a bit of a pop culture footnote and occasional reference used for humorous purposes.

[sense8ional]

Personally while in real life I never heard anyone mentioning Babylon 5, online I've always been reading largely good things about the show in the various communities I've been a part of with some calling it their favorite space scifi show.

That being said I'd definitely say it's kind of an obscure show today, but that's at least partly because it's not on most (any?) streaming Netflix-like sites and the DVDs are ancient as well. I know it's available for purchase on Amazon Instant Video for example but that's not quite the same as having it available on Netflix. A re-release of B5 is long overdue and they can absolutely do quite a bit better than the currently available DVDs (perfect.. no, better.. yes they can) without breaking the bank, contrary to popular belief.

[Technomage-Galen]

Personally while in real life I never heard anyone mentioning Babylon 5, online I've always been reading largely good things about the show in the various communities I've been a part of with some calling it their favorite space scifi show.

That being said I'd definitely say it's kind of an obscure show today, but that's at least partly because it's not on most (any?) streaming Netflix-like sites and the DVDs are ancient as well. I know it's available for purchase on Amazon Instant Video for example but that's not quite the same as having it available on Netflix. A re-release of B5 is long overdue and they can absolutely do quite a bit better than the currently available DVDs (perfect.. no, better.. yes they can) without breaking the bank, contrary to popular belief.

IMO, no amount of "Street Cred" is going to get a Babylon 5 movie made. Even the best screenwriters and directors can put out a total box office stinker. Even people like Ridley Scott and Steven Spielberg have laid some eggs.

My point is that even if he has multiple shows doing well, it's no guarantee investors are going to give him 150M for a B5 movie.

I think his best bet is to come out with a knockout script that takes place in the B5 universe and could potentially become a multi-film property. Pitch it to WB, and convince them to put B5 back on TV and Netflix as part of the marketing strategy.

[Triple F]

In the grand scheme of things B5 really isn't that popular or well acknowledged in most contemporary 'geek' circles.

Exactly.

I’ve only got my own experience to fall back on here but there’s a problem basing opinions on what the geek culture does. Active fan or pop/geek culture doesn’t necessarily represent viewership. Virtually everyone I know has a copy of the DVD box sets – from professional couples to little old ladies. Yet none of them ever take part in, or search out, the fandom. They just liked the story.

I’m part of that group – coming on the web to start what eventually became B5Scrolls – I can’t stress enough how the very concept of fan rivalries, for example, jumped out at me as alien, new and ridiculous – even though I’ve enjoyed sci-fi since being a kid. For long enough I thought it was a bad joke bouncing around folks who liked sci-fi. But it’s not only real, but an everyday part of the fan culture for many…… Fan cultures (all fan cultures) – do not reflect the opinions of the bulk of viewers. Because the bulk of viewers have little to no idea of the sometimes ridiculous stuff bouncing around this relatively small cliche of people.

Was B5 as popular as Star Trek – on first run viewing figures alone, nope not even close. But the little we know of DVD sales indicates it’s popular enough. Either way, there’s literally (at the very least) MILLIONS of people who watched and enjoyed the show, something which (even at it’s peak)the few thousand active online fans often seem to forget – because they’re outnumbered by the active Trek or Wars fans (two fandoms which had been well established long before B5 was even conceived).

The problem for a B5 movie is that big – silent majority of people, to give them a name – are casual fans (there’s another name for them). So getting them off their backsides and into the theatres is unlikely to happen. It’s a bit like the firefly movie (based on a show that got cancelled after 13 episodes). Didn’t do too well in the cinema but made money when it hit the DVD shelf.

[Ubik]

All good points Triple F. I know there's a massive audience in, for instance, Russia that loved B5. Same goes for a lot of eastern Europe.

If I am brutally honest I've found most 'fandoms' to be a bit cringy and awful. I tend to avoid them. This forum is small enough, and well mannered enough that I don't really count it as 'fandom'. It's the B5 FB groups that tend to make my blood boil more often than not, and I frequently don't see eye to eye with that kind of larger fandom. Fan entitlement is rife, facts are often wrong or misreported and god forbid you are able to have a good laugh at certain aspects of the show you love! At heart I guess I still see myself as a casual B5 fan too.

It's a really hard thing to stick a pin in, but we know the DVD box sets sold well in their heyday. As has been said before, more streaming options would good to attract new viewers.

In the end I don't have the slightest idea if a B5 movie is financially feasible or not. It's about the only tangible B5 thing we have left to discuss or argue over! Hahahaha... fandom...

[Ubik]

On a further tangent here... and am kinda thinking out loud, so please don't shoot me down in flames:

I do wonder if 'box office' results are just a bit silly these days, when you can release to an equally global audience directly online.

It's been mentioned and dismissed before, but *cough* Veronica Mars film *cough*. Sure, that and the potential B5 feature are two fundamentally different beasts as JMS has dismissed crowdfunding as a viable option.

I've seen some utterly superb crowdfunded productions. Given B5 was so pioneering with its meagre budget back in the day, I do wonder where that spirit of innovation has gone? I fully appreciate no one wants to stoop to Lost Tales levels of cheapness; an empty B5 is no B5 at all, but there must be a middle ground here. I do admire JMS keeping to 'we do it right or not at all' dictum, but part of me wonders if that does somewhat steer us towards 'not at all'.

[sense8ional]

Netflix started making original movies but I believe that their most expensive one is "only" $60M and stars Brad Pitt.. (War Machine).

JMS has a working relationship with Netflix but I can't see them spending $100M on B5 and I don't even know if JMS' theatrical rights would cover a Netflix original movie.

Lastly, JMS said he could get $60M today anyway.. he's just aiming higher than that.

[Triple F]

On a further tangent here... and am kinda thinking out loud, so please don't shoot me down in flames:

I do wonder if 'box office' results are just a bit silly these days, when you can release to an equally global audience directly online.

It's been mentioned and dismissed before, but *cough* Veronica Mars film *cough*. Sure, that and the potential B5 feature are two fundamentally different beasts as JMS has dismissed crowdfunding as a viable option.

I've seen some utterly superb crowdfunded productions. Given B5 was so pioneering with its meagre budget back in the day, I do wonder where that spirit of innovation has gone? I fully appreciate no one wants to stoop to Lost Tales levels of cheapness; an empty B5 is no B5 at all, but there must be a middle ground here. I do admire JMS keeping to 'we do it right or not at all' dictum, but part of me wonders if that does somewhat steer us towards 'not at all'.

It is a bit of circular logic in some regards. To make a successful movie you need to spend 100+ million to attract big talent actors, directors etc., in order to make it successful enough to earn the 100+million to pay for the big named talent…… wtf?!

But then, what is the motivation behind a movie. Is it just to make millions off box-office receipts, or is it to tell a good story – and make a few bucks off it at the same time, hopefully. If you already own the movie rights, can write the script and have an inexpensive distribution system – ie online (not even necessarily via the likes of Amazon Prime or Netlfix as their just wannabe groups trying to be the virtual equivalent of brick and mortar studios). Then that does remove some sizeable chunks of overhead. Making producer deals with actors and all kinds of key personnel (where they get a percentage of profits rather than getting paid entirely up front) really starts to take huge chunks out the overheads… Assuming you can find people who believe enough in the project to take that risk, of course.

It's doable, or at least something is doable, maybe not for quite at Veronica Mars money, but not a completely out of reach extension of that. Planned properly and well executed, taking as long as it takes, 10 million is a LOT of cash. Which in itself would almost certainly be more than enough to generate some professional funding if needed. Besides, didn’t jms already indicate he could generate a few 10’s of millions, but that’s not enough on it’s own - which is why he’s hoping StudioJMS gets a bit more street cred in order to raise 100+ million….. I might be misremembering that.

One of the things that didn’t make it into the interviews on the scrolls is that many of those spoken to view what’s going on within quality fan productions as a good thing – and know that the studio system has to adapt if it wants to stay relevant and a player. We’re basically in the early stages of a fundamental shift, which is empowering individuals and small groups, in how movies are made. And many within the industry not only know it, but welcome it as they want to do it themselves. It’s those a bit higher up, that are dragging their feet, unsure and more than a little nervous about what direction to take.

Perhaps a more relevant example is something like Riddick. Vin Diesel wanted that made, to the point where he mortgaged his own home according to some reports. Either way he invested a lot of time and effort into pushing it on to the screen. The films reported budget ended up being a mere (he says drooling at the thought) 38 million, and took 100 million in box office alone. So without tv, download, DVD or Blue ray sales a relatively small budget film can still be profitable while looking good. 38 million is still more than the optimistic 10 million which a fund raiser might raise, but then is 10 million optimistic – fund raising has become a far more familiar concept these days….. But what harm would there be to stick a toe in that particular hot tub of an idea….. Someone has to be the first to do it – just like someone had to be the first to use CGI developed in a guys back bedroom which sparked the revolution in VFX production we have now. It was always coming but someone had to be first…… and if it didn’t pan out, what would be lost?

[Jan]

If you already own the movie rights, can write the script and have an inexpensive distribution system – ie online (not even necessarily via the likes of Amazon Prime or Netlfix as their just wannabe groups trying to be the virtual equivalent of brick and mortar studios).

That raises a question (and somebody will have to find out from the WGA, I imagine): JMS has always used the terms 'movie' and 'feature film'. Now I know that a 'TV movie' has an entirely different definition (and pay scale) but I don't know what exactly is defined as a movie or feature and whether they actually have to appear in theaters.

Anybody wanna take that one on?

[Ubik]

That raises a question (and somebody will have to find out from the WGA, I imagine): JMS has always used the terms 'movie' and 'feature film'. Now I know that a 'TV movie' has an entirely different definition (and pay scale) but I don't know what exactly is defined as a movie or feature and whether they actually have to appear in theaters.

Anybody wanna take that one on?

As far as I know a 'feature film' is defined by its running time. According to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, American Film Institute, and British Film Institute, a feature film runs for 40 minutes or longer, while the Screen Actors Guild states that it is 80 minutes or longer.

This seems to be the only stipulation attached to the term.

[Jan]

As far as I know a 'feature film' is defined by its running time. According to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, American Film Institute, and British Film Institute, a feature film runs for 40 minutes or longer, while the Screen Actors Guild states that it is 80 minutes or longer.

This seems to be the only stipulation attached to the term.

What matters, though is how the contract reads, and that's likely dependent on how the WGA defines it. What we'd need is whatever MBA Minimum Basic Agreement was in force in the early 90s, but this is a sample of how they define things.

following meanings:
A. GENERAL
1. The term "television motion picture" (sometimes referred to in
this Basic Agreement as "television film") means the entertainment
portion of motion pictures, whether made on or by film, tape or
otherwise and whether produced by means of motion picture
cameras, electronic cameras or devices or any combination of the
foregoing or any other means, methods or devices, now used or
which may hereafter be adopted for the recordation of motion
pictures produced primarily for exhibition by free television. The
prefatory language to this Basic Agreement and the provisions
cited therein determine the extent to which the provisions of the
Basic Agreement which are applicable to television motion pictures
are also applicable to pay television and basic cable.

2. The term "theatrical motion picture" means motion pictures and
photoplays, whether made on or by film, tape or otherwise and
whether produced by means of motion picture cameras, electronic
cameras, or devices or any combination of the foregoing or any
other means, methods or devices now used or which may be
hereafter adopted for the recordation of motion pictures produced
primarily for exhibition in a theater or similar location in which a fee
or admission charge is paid by the viewing audience, other than
those motion pictures produced primarily for exhibition in another
market covered by this Basic Agreement.

They definitely make a distinction.

[JoeD80]

I imagine Joe is referring to theatrical rights. Direct-to-video and streaming fall under different parts of the MBA; those rights would still be owned by WB I think.

[Babel-17]

On a further tangent here... and am kinda thinking out loud, so please don't shoot me down in flames:

I do wonder if 'box office' results are just a bit silly these days, when you can release to an equally global audience directly online.

It's been mentioned and dismissed before, but *cough* Veronica Mars film *cough*. Sure, that and the potential B5 feature are two fundamentally different beasts as JMS has dismissed crowdfunding as a viable option.

I've seen some utterly superb crowdfunded productions. Given B5 was so pioneering with its meagre budget back in the day, I do wonder where that spirit of innovation has gone? I fully appreciate no one wants to stoop to Lost Tales levels of cheapness; an empty B5 is no B5 at all, but there must be a middle ground here. I do admire JMS keeping to 'we do it right or not at all' dictum, but part of me wonders if that does somewhat steer us towards 'not at all'.

I helped kickstart Henri, a very nice short film. Check out the cast. I also helped kickstart the video game, Dreamfall: Chapters.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2069787/

Keir Dullea, Margot Kidder ...

Huh, the whole movie in HD seems to be for free at Vimeo now. Cool! And, lol, you're all welcome!

https://vimeo.com/61686359

P.S. I've seen some fan made movies on youtube that had my jaw dropping. The Judge Dredd one, and The Punisher one with the star from the movie. There was a series of videos based on The Fallout video game that were incredibly well crafted, and very funny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Punisher:_Dirty_Laundry

Extremely violent, NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitc

[Ubik]

Yep there some stunning crowd funded / indie / fan films out there. The Dredd and Punisher short films are very well executed. There was a thread a while back about B5 fan films, and the distinct lack thereof. There was a brief effort a year or two back to organise people to do a fan production but the facebook group turned into the biggest clusterf*&k of bickering fans with no direction at all, poor story ideas and not a hope in hell of getting anything done.

Most fan films are made by a small group of enthusiasts, usually film students or someone with an avid interest in shooting / editing. I guess there's the old Babylon Park stuff and Star Wreck for B5 Parody, but I remain surprised no one has had a crack at a short film set in the B5 universe. (I always thought something outside of canon or stand alone would work best, as opposed to trying to continue any original plot lines).

This one is worth a mention:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1288561702/alan-moore-and-mitch-jenkins-his-heavy-heart

Beautifully shot project between Alan Moore and Mitch Jenkins. Made for a mere 60,000 GBP. I think you can now buy the films directly from LEX as a box set or digitally. it has a heavy Twin Peaks vibe, transported to Southern England with lots of Burlesque. I was a backer, and was so excited to see this get made. Trailer here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVam62ZPzr4