Babylon 5 Movie through Studio JMS

[cornholio1980]

See this is where I think there is a real opportunity. I think that if the new B5 is a success it will open up all kinds of possibilities for the original arc.

For new B5-material? Yes. New material for the original arc? Dunno, I just don't see it. I mean, let's say you're one of the guys that find B5 through the reboot, and then there's a new book coming out and it plays in a totally different timeline? Wouldn't that be incredibly confusing?

However, you do get all the positive effects that you describe by simply making a B5 movie in the established continuity - which is exactly what I hoped for for 15+ years now .

Yes conversely speaking a failed reboot can slam them shut,

Just to clarify, I never even took the question of success or failure into account. I think that as soon as B5 is rebooted, the old B5 is dead and buried (instead of "just" lying in a coma, as it's right now).

I do agree that recasting the original actors in different roles will be very, very tricky. I do have hope though.

Of course, I also hope for the best. I just wanted to point out while I can understand those who are not as overly enthusiastic about the idea of a B5-reboot, since I happen to be one of them . That doesn't mean that I don't want it to happen, or that I will boycott it, or something like that. I just would have prefered new material in the old, established continuity that I followed for more than 20 years .

[Triple F]

I suppose, and this is a bit of a wacky idea to say the least. But before any new proposed movie was to actually hit the cinema’s. Maybe this could even happen at the same time that the formal announcement of filming had began.

But perhaps a one off book, comic or short web series of some kind wrapping up some of the more popular story arcs, or providing an end story for some of the characters might help with the transition from old B5 to new……. Basically giving some fans the chance to essentially say “good bye” to old Babylon 5, and let them get their head around that an end of an era has been reached.

I mean, at the end of B5 we got something like this with the last few episodes of the show. Even the actors had to face up to the reality that the story has ended…. FULL STOP.

But then Crusade appeared, and was followed by the LoTR and TLT, which meant that more history was written after that initial full stop on the show. So maybe a new full stop might be a good idea…. Joe certainly has enough ways to get it out to the fans these days.

When we sat down to watch the Lost Tales none of us really imagined it would be the very last thing produced in the ‘verse. Quite the contrary, since we were told that more would be made if it was successful, and as jms said it outperformed WB’s expectations so everything looked good for new material until…. Well, you know. So fans (and hope) has sort of been left dangling since then….. and that’s probably causing part of the resistance to new Babylon 5 that some are expressing.

[Jan]

But perhaps a one off book, comic or short web series of some kind wrapping up some of the more popular story arcs, or providing an end story for some of the characters might help with the transition from old B5 to new……. Basically giving some fans the chance to essentially say “good bye” to old Babylon 5, and let them get their head around that an end of an era has been reached.

I always feel like such a wet blanket when I say this but...books, comics, web series, audio drama, sock puppet theater - those are all up to Warner Bros. I really hope that they'll come on board with the movie and that they'll want to do something really inventive but I'm afraid I don't have much hope of that.

Jan

[cornholio1980]

When we sat down to watch the Lost Tales none of us really imagined it would be the very last thing produced in the 'verse. Quite the contrary, since we were told that more would be made if it was successful, and as jms said it outperformed WB’s expectations so everything looked good for new material until…. Well, you know. So fans (and hope) has sort of been left dangling since then….. and that’s probably causing part of the resistance to new Babylon 5 that some are expressing.

This. And everything else that you said. You perfectly summed up the reason why I'm so reluctant to embrace a reboot - and said it way better than I could have ever done. Thank you, sir!

[Triple F]

I always feel like such a wet blanket when I say this but...books, comics, web series, audio drama, sock puppet theater - those are all up to Warner Bros. I really hope that they'll come on board with the movie and that they'll want to do something really inventive but I'm afraid I don't have much hope of that.

Jan

Well, here’s a thing to consider. If nothing else, jms can use the fair usage clause as much as anyone else. A free (and yes being free is a legal consideration in such things) story set in the B5 ‘verse covering events not covered in the show is essentially fan fiction…… and fan fiction is more than tolerated by WB….. hell, they sell it in kindle books on Amazon.

A commercial venture is one thing, but a FREE cartoon strip, short animation, audio drama or e-book - the sort of thing produced all over the place, by all kinds of fans, for all kinds of shows from all kinds of studios (including WB) is something else. I just don’t see WB being a realistic obstacle to such a thing…… and that’s assuming they would put a stop on something official to begin with.

[Ubik]

I suppose, and this is a bit of a wacky idea to say the least. But before any new proposed movie was to actually hit the cinema’s. Maybe this could even happen at the same time that the formal announcement of filming had began.

But perhaps a one off book, comic or short web series of some kind wrapping up some of the more popular story arcs, or providing an end story for some of the characters might help with the transition from old B5 to new……. Basically giving some fans the chance to essentially say “good bye” to old Babylon 5, and let them get their head around that an end of an era has been reached.

I mean, at the end of B5 we got something like this with the last few episodes of the show. Even the actors had to face up to the reality that the story has ended…. FULL STOP.

But then Crusade appeared, and was followed by the LoTR and TLT, which meant that more history was written after that initial full stop on the show. So maybe a new full stop might be a good idea…. Joe certainly has enough ways to get it out to the fans these days.

When we sat down to watch the Lost Tales none of us really imagined it would be the very last thing produced in the ‘verse. Quite the contrary, since we were told that more would be made if it was successful, and as jms said it outperformed WB’s expectations so everything looked good for new material until…. Well, you know. So fans (and hope) has sort of been left dangling since then….. and that’s probably causing part of the resistance to new Babylon 5 that some are expressing.

I may be in the minority here, but I’m more than ready for that fresh start.

Nothing that was produced after the final season of B5 really screamed ‘quality’ to me. It all just felt to me like the basic concept of the show had been stretched too far. 'Sleeping in Light' was that full stop for me, and it was perfectly realised and affecting. B5 should have finished there. it was a story with a beginning, middle and end. 'Get in, tell the story, get out', is what Joe said, or something to that effect.

Lost Tales was deeply underwhelming, and I tried so hard to like Crusade, but the low budget nature of the show, coupled with the early cancellation meant it never really found a place in my heart. Even JMS admits that doing Crusade was a mistake in retrospect. And don’t even get me started on LOTR. I don’t want to see any more cheap filler material or false starts. As fans, we deserve better and so does Joe.

I want the next thing I see to be a clean slate... and more importantly, i want it to be well thought out, high budget and with a beginning, middle and end. If it ain’t that, count me out!

[sarthaz]

I may be in the minority here, but I'm more than ready for that fresh start. ...

I definitely agree with your core point. There are some moments in the post-SIL material that make me smile, but it's mostly forgettable and underwhelming. I think I'd probably be happier if the show had just ended, and that was that.

That said, it's just too difficult for me to imagine how a rebooted film can work in this universe. Anything's possible, but B5's greatness stems from slow builds, large character/story arcs, and big payoffs. It has a lot of other quality going for it, but that is its primary differentiation from everything else.

Say what you will about the Star Trek reboot, but they accomplished this task successfully, and that gives me some small hope. But Star Trek was so much more episodic in design, with small stories and smart themes, so taking it to the films in the first place made it "bigger". And while I love Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, their character traits can be encapsulated in small scenes over the course of a film. Kirk needs to be less reckless, Spock needs to be more human, and McCoy needs to change nothing at all -- he's perfect. That's basically it, so rebooting the whole shebang in one film isn't that big a deal. But taking B5 to the film world makes it "smaller", both in terms of character and story. There's just no way to tell a story like Londo's or G'Kar's in a 2-hour film, unless the film is entirely about that character. Hell, there've been like 10 Avengers movies, and we barely know anything about them. Yes, I know that's big-budget action-movie writing, but the point stands that there's so little room in a film for what B5 did so well.

I guess what I'm ultimately hoping for is something like the story of Babylon 4. Keep it in our universe, recast a character or two, and tell a good story. I don't think it's possible to truly "reboot" B5 and do it any kind of justice. I know it makes little marketing sense to make a Babylon 5 movie that's not about the Babylon 5 station, but its story can't be successfully retold in my opinion. I hope to be proven wrong, but I fear I'll look back on this in years and feel the same way I feel about Lost Tales, etc -- wishing they'd just left it alone.

[Triple F]

Good point about a Babylon 5 movie makes it smaller rather than larger as per the Trek analogy. I think that there may be another small part which makes up the reason why people are having a problem with just the idea of a reboot – and it ties in with what jms (and some fans) has said about Crusade possibly being a bit of a mistake. For years jms has said repeatedly that he wanted to tell the Babylon 5 story and when finished, he’d walk away a happy man.

The conviction behind that was so strong that back in the day even the actors – and some of the crew - got a bit pissed off that he stopped the show when he did. Many fans fully backed the decision or at least viewed it as sign that he meant what he said. So at some unconscious level, even though we all hoped the stories might be continued in some form, we knew in our heart of hearts there was nothing more of substance to come…. Which in itself might explain why so many felt that LoTR and TLT and even Crusade had always felt a bit flat and not really fully recapturing the magic that had gone before…. Basically the Babylon 5 story had been told to everyone’s satisfaction, including jms’s.

But now we’re in the situation where jms is not only wanting to do something else in the ‘verse. But he wants to do a reboot. So folks might be asking themselves what was wrong with the original, and why do it again if you said it was a one off and you were happy with it. It’s a bit of a u-turn on many years of what Joe had been saying, and what fans therefore believed to be the situation.

As I’ve mentioned before I don’t actually have a problem with a reboot or anything else for that matter when it comes to B5. I just enjoyed the story and wasn’t around the web back then to either observe or participate in the excitement of watching in unfold and possibly interact with jms, so I’ve never really got invested in it the way that some others have. But I can certainly see some reason why folks might be scratching their heads on this wondering why a reboot is considered necessary – especially given all the things jms has said about it being a one off and how the spin-offs turned out.

[cornholio1980]

As Jan said to me a couple of days ago in a Sense8-thread: Not wanting to be argumentative, but... . Ah yes, and the first part is OT, I guess. Sorry 'bout that.

I actually think that the "Star Trek"-reboot is not an encouraging, but rather a worrisome example of a reboot. Whatever you might think of the overall quality and entertainment level of the movie, it was about as far removed from its source as it could have been. There was no trekking, instead of a thought-out and thoughtful story and/or an adventure, we got an action spectacle that had more in common with "Star Wars" than "Star Trek". it catered to a completely different, more mainstream audience, and while I get that you can't make a 100 million $ movie for a small fanbase, it would probably kill me to see the B5-reboot taking a similar route.

As for B5 and it's continuations. First, JMS original arc actually was a 10-year-arc, leading from "Babylon 5" straight to "Babylon Prime". So even back in the day, the continuation of "babylon 5" was very much on his mind. And while I completely get that the response to everything that came after the original B5 was mixed, I personally thought that "Crusade" had a lot of potential. And I just loved loved loved loved loved the idea of a "Lost Tales"-anthology series set within the B5-universe, mostly given it's wide range of possible stories; Londo's struggle as Emperor of Centauri Prime, the Telepath Crisis, Valen's adventures on B4 and the accompanying shadow war 1.000 years ago... seriously, the possibilities were endless. Thus, I totally admit that the fact that we never got any more Lost Tales left an extremely bitter taste in my mouth (as you said, it was supposed to be the beginning, not the end), which definitely plays a part in my reluctance concerning the reboot.

If only they would give us just one more epic goodbye, preferably as a movie, I think it would be far easier for me to let old-B5 go, and open myself up to a reboot. But as it stands, as much as the five-year story was told in it's entirety, because of all the attempts to continue, it still feels unfinished to me, somehow. Then again, I definitely agree that a rebooted B5 is still better than no B5, so if that really is the only way for it to return, then so be it. You can be sure that I'll keep my fingers crossed that it will prove my misgivings unwarranted, and will blow me away.

[Dan Dassow]

I always feel like such a wet blanket when I say this but...books, comics, web series, audio drama, sock puppet theater - those are all up to Warner Bros. I really hope that they'll come on board with the movie and that they'll want to do something really inventive but I'm afraid I don't have much hope of that.

Jan

Jan,

Wet blanket, never!

You simply understand and remind people of Joe's responsibilities and ethics as a professional writer.

... a horrible thought crossed my mind: sock puppet Sense8 (EEK!) ...

Well, here’s a thing to consider. If nothing else, jms can use the fair usage clause as much as anyone else. A free (and yes being free is a legal consideration in such things) story set in the B5 ‘verse covering events not covered in the show is essentially fan fiction…… and fan fiction is more than tolerated by WB….. hell, they sell it in kindle books on Amazon.

A commercial venture is one thing, but a FREE cartoon strip, short animation, audio drama or e-book - the sort of thing produced all over the place, by all kinds of fans, for all kinds of shows from all kinds of studios (including WB) is something else. I just don’t see WB being a realistic obstacle to such a thing…… and that’s assuming they would put a stop on something official to begin with.

Joe is an active member of the Screen Writers Guild and a strong advocate for that organization. As such, I cannot imagine Joe would intentionally violate the intellectual property of WB or anyone else.

[JesseW]

Does anyone know if Joe gave any sort of update on the B5 movie during his spotlight at SDCC yesterday?

The interwebs has failed me in all of my attempts to find out

[Jan]

It's exactly the same except that he said he expects to be writing the script later this year.

More when I find my recorder. Meanwhile, here's a pretty good synopsis:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/sdcc-jms-announces-flash-earth-one-talks-gender-issues-on-television

...including the reason why JMS was late to a con event for only the second time ever (that I know of).

Jan

[Ubik]

Nice to see JMS fighting crime again!

Echoing an incident from the Chicago Comic-Con in 1995 when Straczynski tackled a thief who tried to steal artwork from a dealer's table, he said that he had just tripped a man who stole a woman's purse in San Diego's Seaport Village and was running past him.

I do hope he finds time to dedicate to the B5 film amidst all the projects he's taking on.

[phazedout]

JMS: "I'm writerman" in a suitably gravelly voice.

[moreorless]

I definitely agree with your core point. There are some moments in the post-SIL material that make me smile, but it's mostly forgettable and underwhelming. I think I'd probably be happier if the show had just ended, and that was that.

That said, it's just too difficult for me to imagine how a rebooted film can work in this universe. Anything's possible, but B5's greatness stems from slow builds, large character/story arcs, and big payoffs. It has a lot of other quality going for it, but that is its primary differentiation from everything else.

Say what you will about the Star Trek reboot, but they accomplished this task successfully, and that gives me some small hope. But Star Trek was so much more episodic in design, with small stories and smart themes, so taking it to the films in the first place made it "bigger". And while I love Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, their character traits can be encapsulated in small scenes over the course of a film. Kirk needs to be less reckless, Spock needs to be more human, and McCoy needs to change nothing at all -- he's perfect. That's basically it, so rebooting the whole shebang in one film isn't that big a deal. But taking B5 to the film world makes it "smaller", both in terms of character and story. There's just no way to tell a story like Londo's or G'Kar's in a 2-hour film, unless the film is entirely about that character. Hell, there've been like 10 Avengers movies, and we barely know anything about them. Yes, I know that's big-budget action-movie writing, but the point stands that there's so little room in a film for what B5 did so well.

I guess what I'm ultimately hoping for is something like the story of Babylon 4. Keep it in our universe, recast a character or two, and tell a good story. I don't think it's possible to truly "reboot" B5 and do it any kind of justice. I know it makes little marketing sense to make a Babylon 5 movie that's not about the Babylon 5 station, but its story can't be successfully retold in my opinion. I hope to be proven wrong, but I fear I'll look back on this in years and feel the same way I feel about Lost Tales, etc -- wishing they'd just left it alone.

Really for me the Telepath/Bester situation was the main thing I wanted to see more of, maybe a bit of Lennier.

I'd also agree about Trek, in some ways it was easier to take because we'd had such large amounts of fan focused Trek in the 90's and early 00's that a lot of people were just burnt out on it(especially as the latter TNG films weren't great) and welcomed a change but it wasn't really the Trek we knew rather some of the characters stuck into a Hollywood action film.

Luckly I'm not sure you could do the same thing with B5 though, yes it had some great characters but none of them have anything close to the public awareness of Kirk/Spock/Bones.

I'd agree with your point about building characters and plots as well, B5 as we know it couldn't even he handled in a trilogy of 3 hour films effectively. As you suggest I think the obvious way to go about it would be to cut out a section of the story and focus on it. One thing JMS could maybe attempt is back to back filming for more than one release, that does save a good deal of money and would make a sequal more likely.