If you could change one thing about B5...

[Sinclair's Fan]

He even could have gone back 1.000 years and tell the story of Valen.

As a dyed-in-the-wool Sinclair Fan, I onced asked JMS a question on this very subject. We decided not to discuss story ideas, for obvious legal reasons! But he was able to answer a direct question; that it was at the very least a vague possibility, because nothing was "written in stone".

Heck, I'd have been happy with a simple flashback . Bless you, JMS!

[Ubik]

This post also encouraged me to ponder how Babylon 5 will be remembered four hundred years in the future. Will elements of Babylon 5 be performed in the future much as Shakespearean plays are performed today; or will Babylon 5 be largely forgotten when the current fan base and those connected with the show have died off? I am optimistic that Babylon 5 will survive in one form or another during the next four hundred years. It would be interesting to see Babylon 5 from that historical perspective.

I expect it to survive, as the show is still attracting new fans many years after concluding. I doubt it will endure in the same way Shakespeare has, but within its own genre I think it will hold its own as a classic. People still go back and watch Blakes 7, and classic SF films, so I don't see why B5 shouldn't.

Even if it were to fall off the map completely in terms of physical format representation (box sets, etc) the internet is a powerful tool for fans to keep something alive. I keep a digital copy of the show for when my DVDs fail or are superceeded by another format. I'm half expecting Netflix to pick B5 up again when they air Sense8.

[Dan Dassow]

Given enough time and money, I think JMS would have made a very interesting anthology show out of The Lost Tales. Even without direct continuity between the stories, I think there would be many ways of exploring thematic continuity.

I'm certainly very fond of the little bit that we got, even if it has flaws. There's a lot more depth to those two stories than people give them credit for.

Exactly my thoughts - (sorry for being the echo , echo

It would have been great if "The Lost Tales" had a decent budget. The concept had a lot of potential to look at events before, during and after the series from a perspective beyond that of the main cast.

This post also encouraged me to ponder how Babylon 5 will be remembered four hundred years in the future. Will elements of Babylon 5 be performed in the future much as Shakespearean plays are performed today; or will Babylon 5 be largely forgotten when the current fan base and those connected with the show have died off? I am optimistic that Babylon 5 will survive in one form or another during the next four hundred years. It would be interesting to see Babylon 5 from that historical perspective.

[babylonlurker]

Given enough time and money, I think JMS would have made a very interesting anthology show out of The Lost Tales. Even without direct continuity between the stories, I think there would be many ways of exploring thematic continuity.

I'm certainly very fond of the little bit that we got, even if it has flaws. There's a lot more depth to those two stories than people give them credit for.

Exactly my thoughts - (sorry for being the echo , echo

[Jonas]

Given enough time and money, I think JMS would have made a very interesting anthology show out of The Lost Tales. Even without direct continuity between the stories, I think there would be many ways of exploring thematic continuity.

I'm certainly very fond of the little bit that we got, even if it has flaws. There's a lot more depth to those two stories than people give them credit for.

[cornholio1980]

I always think the reason B5 endures is because of the series long story arcs. It's those gradual shifts in characters, the rise and fall of empires and the small details that come to fruition further on down the line.

No argument there. No single outing, not even a big movie, could ever have the same (emotional) impact of the show. I was always very much aware of this, and actually think that it may be one of the main reasons why I liked "The Lost Tales" more than others did, because I never expected it to live up to the show itself in that specific regard.

Still, I do believe that this doesn't mean that there are no interesting stories left to tell. Take the short stories for example. And from my point of view, The Lost Tales would have been an intruiging way to tell them, because of all the possibilities coming with such an anthology show. I for one am really sad that the "Lost Tales" lived up to their name in a way I hadn't anticipated when they first were announced .

[sarthaz]

Could not agree more.

[Ubik]

What really disappointed me immensely, however, is that there never were any more "Lost Tales". I know that many people were disappointed by the first DVD. And yes, there certainly were issues, especially related to the budget. However, apart from it finally being the B5-return that I had longer for for so long (and back then, it really seemed like a new beginning, and not another end, of B5), what I loved about it was the concept, and the almost infinite possibilities. JMS could have told stories with Londo and Vir on Centauri Prime. With Sheridan and Delenn on Minbar. Garibaldi on Mars. Lochley and Zack on B5. And he didn't even have to stay in the same time frame all the time. Why not go back and tell a story or two from the telepath war? Continue Crusade and at least tell us how they found a cure for the plague? Tell a tale from Ivanovas adventures as commander of a starship? He even could have gone back 1.000 years and tell the story of Valen. The possibilities were endless. And I think that's why it's my biggest regret about B5. With the Ivanova-Season 5-thing, I at least can make it up in my mind, because there's enough information around to play with it in your head and make up your own story of what could have been. But we will never ever even remotely know what JMS might have had in store for us if he would have continued telling these "Lost Tales" of Babylon 5.

At this point, I remain very sceptical about any addition to B5 continuity, and by that I am referring only to B5, the series proper, not any of the spin off shows. Crusade, is another matter entirely, as I see it as its own show.

I always think the reason B5 endures is because of the series long story arcs. It's those gradual shifts in characters, the rise and fall of empires and the small details that come to fruition further on down the line. The problem I have with Lost Tales is that it's an anthology show. It's fun little one off stories, but by the very nature of the format I think we instantly lose what made B5 so good, namely the tightly plotted series long arc. I know JMS loves the The Twilight Zone, and the anthology format in general, but I honestly don't think B5 was the best fit to explore it.

Another that always bugs me about The Lost Tales is the absence of an ensemble cast of characters, and the lack of hustle and bustle on the station. In the Lost Tales all that is gone, and B5 feels like it's been deserted. The station just doesn't feel 'alive' like it does in the series. Obviously, this is down to budget constraints, and I do think JMS was right to tell WB he didn't want to make any more when they refused to up the budget.

I remain of the opinion think that B5 should be left alone. Some untold stories are best left untold, and we can always speculate to our hearts' content, as we are doing here. JMS did his five years, and what a wonderful five years it was.

[cornholio1980]

I think that - if we're really only allowed to change one single thing about B5 - I have to recant my previous answer. As much as it would have improved Season 5, I at least can think about how it would/could have been, and play it out in my head.

What really disappointed me immensely, however, is that there never were any more "Lost Tales". I know that many people were disappointed by the first DVD. And yes, there certainly were issues, especially related to the budget. However, apart from it finally being the B5-return that I had longer for for so long (and back then, it really seemed like a new beginning, and not another end, of B5), what I loved about it was the concept, and the almost infinite possibilities. JMS could have told stories with Londo and Vir on Centauri Prime. With Sheridan and Delenn on Minbar. Garibaldi on Mars. Lochley and Zack on B5. And he didn't even have to stay in the same time frame all the time. Why not go back and tell a story or two from the telepath war? Continue Crusade and at least tell us how they found a cure for the plague? Tell a tale from Ivanovas adventures as commander of a starship? He even could have gone back 1.000 years and tell the story of Valen. The possibilities were endless. And I think that's why it's my biggest regret about B5. With the Ivanova-Season 5-thing, I at least can make it up in my mind, because there's enough information around to play with it in your head and make up your own story of what could have been. But we will never ever even remotely know what JMS might have had in store for us if he would have continued telling these "Lost Tales" of Babylon 5.

[Ubik]

I have too many changes to specify one . . . at this time. I will say that this is one of the most interesting threads to sit down and read in one sitting. Kudos everyone!

Yes, this has been a great thread! I aim to please. Looney, definitely chime in when you have your 'one' thing you might like to see done differently. It's all fun speculation / discussion.

Triple F, you should chime in more round these parts! I love the material your've collected over at the B5 Scrolls site. I have yet to digest it all, but it's fascinating stuff.

[Triple F]

Yeah. Your spot on Ubik.

In the first few years there was a good balance going on when it came to the FX. Strong personalities on both sides of the suit v artist battle that always exists – so they were able to curb the more excessive demands of each other. The result was massive output of innovative stuff being produced almost on a weekly basis.

Add to that the likes of Ron, Mojo and John Teska (who incidentally was a very skilled animator who doesn’t get enough credit even on B5Scrolls for his influence on the show) were from a film background, and that’s why something like the big battle in Severed Dreams is such a well paced and choreographed thing, rather than a chaotic jumbled mess that’s difficult to follow – as is often the case in filmed space battle scenes.

Two things happened when Netter Digital took over. Firstly, two junior animators brought into FI to work on Hypernauts during season 3 of B5 were promoted to senior animators for the part they played in setting up Netter Digital months before screwing over FI (they had already set everything up and carried out tests) – the problem was they just didn’t have the relevant experience or skills set to fit that role. Here’s an example why.

Look at the tail segment of a White Star from season 4 onwards. The texture is an absolute mess when compared to that on the rest of the ship (or what appeared in season 3). The reason for that was they lost the original because they didn’t keep backup copies of the master assets and didn’t have the skill to replicate the original texture Ron created!

The second thing that happened was that the all important balance was lost. An artistic department was now being run by money men who’s first instincts, training, focus and experience was cutting corners and costs – and less to do with art and quality. As Josh (who worked for Netter) mentioned.

I'll paraphrase what John Copeland said once, when there were some complaints about the increasing shot load. "It's a challenge we face to be proud of every single shot we do for television, and still deliver on- time. We have to try and be perfectionists, yes, but at the end of the day, we still have a show to deliver." (insert grumbles from animators)

Among other things, that resulted in a LOT more cutting and pasting in many scenes especially the big fleet shots, and some truly outrageous, and unnecessary errors reaching the screen. The irony of that is that the shot count/cost ratio is one of the things Netter used to drive a wedge between FI and jms. Netter was telling porkies to both of them and made it look like FI was being greedy and jms was being inflexible and overly demanding. The unfortunate thing was Netter and Copeland had done such a good job, and continued to do so after the event, that jms went on to make some online comments and judgements he now regrets.

The whole things was not good for the show (and nearly put FI out of business), because the other thing that was lost when they got the boot was the sheer above and beyond dedication that the team brought to the show, nevermind the incredible range of ideas they came up with. The Shadows, for one thing, would have appeared as Shadowmen. ; )

[Looney]

I have too many changes to specify one . . . at this time. I will say that this is one of the most interesting threads to sit down and read in one sitting. Kudos everyone!

[Ubik]

Story-wise I wouldn't want to change something as one little variation ends up creating a very different story.

If I could change something I would like B5 to have the same budget in season 4-5 as in 1-3. My main concern here is the CGI. The camera movements became too frantic but most irritating was the way too fast movement of objects: good examples are the scenes in "Epiphanies" with the Thunderbolt fighters.

What I found unusual, how the opening scenes in "Into the Fire" have way too fast Whitestars whizzing around like they were lightnings in the sky (together with frantic camera movements) while the main battle has a very different vibe to it. I often wondered whether this happened because Foundation Imaging already started to work on it (considering how much render power it needed, and how little CGI was to be found in the preceding episodes) so they could focus on making it a real climax of CGI seen until then. I never saw a hint about it so maybe this is a question Triple F could answer from his many interviews with key CGI people.

IÆm unsure if this issue is directly related to budget constraints. I think itÆs more to do with Foundation Imaging being dropped at the end of Season 3 in favour of the new æin houseÆ Netter Digital. Of course, this in itself was a æcost savingÆ move, but I know Netter Digital had to hit the ground running. They didnÆt have quite the same in house experience and expertise as Foundation Imaging to begin with. I think this is covered in quite some detail over on Triple FÆs site B5 Scrolls. (As an aside, IÆd love to see an Echoes style book that covers these interviews).

Personally, I think Foundation did better work, and really contributed a great deal to the show in terms of design. They achieved what no one else thought was possible in terms of CGI for television. A large chunk of the realistic space physics that won the show so many fans at NASA can be directly attributed to Ron Thornton, who set up Foundation Imaging.

[Zoltan]

Story-wise I wouldn't want to change something as one little variation ends up creating a very different story.

If I could change something I would like B5 to have the same budget in season 4-5 as in 1-3. My main concern here is the CGI. The camera movements became too frantic but most irritating was the way too fast movement of objects: good examples are the scenes in "Epiphanies" with the Thunderbolt fighters.

What I found unusual, how the opening scenes in "Into the Fire" have way too fast Whitestars whizzing around like they were lightnings in the sky (together with frantic camera movements) while the main battle has a very different vibe to it. I often wondered whether this happened because Foundation Imaging already started to work on it (considering how much render power it needed, and how little CGI was to be found in the preceding episodes) so they could focus on making it a real climax of CGI seen until then. I never saw a hint about it so maybe this is a question Triple F could answer from his many interviews with key CGI people.

[DaveNarn]

I've figured out the problem with Byron, I think: he doesn't have a sense of humour.

Good point - as Bester would say 'you got it in one'

Like Byron, a former teacher of mine from school showed no signs of humor, I thought he might have made a better undertaker than instructor.

A perfect Byron parody song can be found on 'Aliens Ate My Homework' album.
After hearing it, I bought the whole album... great stuff!

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bohnhoff3