The Big Lie (possible spoilers)

[Marsden]

There's a persistent lie, propagated by Kosh and Delenn that the Icarus woke up the Shadows. This is false.

Even that Io9 article said Anna woke up the Shadows, which just proved that guy didn't bother to really watch B5.

Here is some reasons why I say this.


1. Soldier of Darkness programed his ship to go back to the rim about 2250.

2. Every 5 years the inner circle of the Technomages got new tech for their new mages from the Drahk.

3. That ship found on Mars was dug out by another, which they tracked to the rim, which was why they sent the Icarus.
4. The extensive build up on rim worlds by various races, Drahk, Zenner, and others, to support the Shadows infrastucture.

I think Kosh knew he had the right man in Sheridan and wanted to make it a personal thing by telling Sheridan what happened to his wife. Even their reasoning, as given by Delenn, is suspect. She asserted the ones who would not serve were killed, but the Shadows just used them anyway. Once they put you in one of those ships you're never the same,

unless you're Galen

, so why would they need to cooperate?

Also, I'm just putting this out for discussion.

It's interesting how Kosh was pulling everyones strings, even if it might have been for a positive goal. This is one of the reasons I asserted previously the Vorlon won the Shadow war, the younger races just benefited from it.

[JoeD80]

Interesting; point #2 seems a bit at odds with Joe's thoughts in the Technomage trilogy outline:

In the outline, it's specifically said that the Drakh don't know how to control the Shadow tech implanted in the Technomages. It was knowledge only the Shadows had and they took it with them beyond the rim. So part of the Drakh's motiviation was trying to figure out how to control that Tech. The Shadows could have just flipped a switch and the Technomages would be working for them, which is why the mages left during the war -- so the Technomages were the Shadows equivalent of the Telepath weapon that the Vorlons had and the Drakh were trying to get that power.

As for Delenn - she holds a lot back actually. I really appreciated this on my last re-watch. There are several scenes where she says nothing when she could have. Also Kosh could be feeding her false information. Remember he wants her to do what the Vorlons want, so what better way to motivate than to paint the Shadows as unfeeling killers.

[Ubik]

Also, I'm just putting this out for discussion.

It's interesting how Kosh was pulling everyones strings, even if it might have been for a positive goal. This is one of the reasons I asserted previously the Vorlon won the Shadow war, the younger races just benefited from it.

You raise a very interesting point, and there is indeed a web of lies around the Shadows and the Vorlons.

I'm about half way through reading the Vol. 15 Script book that arrived with me on Friday. (Such a wonderful item! I no longer regret the $100 price tag). I get the same general impression from reading the outlines submitted to the studios, as well as the 'original arc' outline, which is (to a great extent) retained but executed in a different way.

One thing that become very apparent when reading this material is that the Vorlons are INCREDIBLY manipulative, and want to impose their vision for the younger races. In many ways, they are no better than the Shadows. Now, perhaps you're thinking, 'well yes, that's kinda obvious', but for some reason it comes across way stronger when set down in the book. When watching the show, for the Vorlons, I always got an air of 'mysterious but working with the side of good'. But, reading the outlines, they seem far more sinister to me. They have their own agenda and do not flinch in achieving it. Nothing in black and white in the B5 universe, one of the many reasons the show still stands head and shoulders above so much other SF TV.

I think the Vorlons do leave known space having achieved much of what they set out to do. They have stopped the shadows, but their meddling is also at an end (even though there's a legacy to be dealt with, telepaths, etc).

I must admit I LOVE how the conflict escalates in the outline for the 'original' arc, but that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

[KoshN]

I think the Vorlons do leave known space having achieved much of what they set out to do. They have stopped the shadows, but their meddling is also at an end (even though there's a legacy to be dealt with, telepaths, etc).

The Shadows also have a legacy to be dealt with (all of the leftover Shadowtech, some in Earth ships e.g. the Warlock class destroyers, some with the Drakh, and who knows where else, and the Technomages.).

[Marsden]

One thing that become very apparent when reading this material is that the Vorlons are INCREDIBLY manipulative, and want to impose their vision for the younger races. In many ways, they are no better than the Shadows. Now, perhaps you're thinking, 'well yes, that's kinda obvious', but for some reason it comes across way stronger when set down in the book. When watching the show, for the Vorlons, I always got an air of 'mysterious but working with the side of good'. But, reading the outlines, they seem far more sinister to me.

I think Kosh, himself, is the primary reason for that. He really seemed to care about the younger races, the others didn't. I think the other Vorlon thought of us as we do the ant.