Epiphanies / Thirdspace / Atonement

[Sinclair's Fan]

Hello, gang!

Here's a question I posted about 4-and-a-bit years ago elsewhere on the interweb, and never received an answer for.

What do you reckon? Did Callenn's plan succeed?

"Last night I watched Epiphanies, Thirdspace, and Atonement in one
sitting... (it'd been a tiring day at work and I just wanted to
rest!). I've read somewhere that Thirdspace was set after The Illusion
of Truth... but that episode felt kind of like one of JMS's "selah"
stories so I left it out on this occasion because I wanted to watch an
adventure story instead.

I thought that these three stories sat together very well as a
trilogy! Just my opinion, of course.

After Atonement, I found myself wondering... if Callenn wanted to
cover up the fact that Valen had Human DNA, does that mean the
population of the fictional B5 Universe were never told of Sinclair's
fate ever? Has JMS or any other B5 novelist written a story in which
the truth comes out? Or was Callenn successful for all time?

I hope you can help!"

[JoeD80]

I'm not sure about them being told about Sinclair's fate specifically, but I think it's implied by the overall story that the day will come when the Minbari can accept the human/Minbari DNA mixing. Certainly the fact that Sheridan & Delenn have a son together will ease the transition to accepting it. It's also the point of the Ranger symbol where Marcus talks about them one day connecting or something like that (wish I remembered the dialogue off the top of my head. It's when he describes what the Ranger symbol means, one half being human, and the other half being Minbari)

[Jan]

It's also the point of the Ranger symbol where Marcus talks about them one day connecting or something like that (wish I remembered the dialogue off the top of my head. It's when he describes what the Ranger symbol means, one half being human, and the other half being Minbari)

Ask and you shall receive

Y'know what I heard about these
things? That when they're made,
they're forged in white hot flame,
and then cooled in three bowls: the
first is some kind of ancient holy
water, the second is Minbari blood,
the third is human blood.
They say that when a Ranger dies,
the figures on either side shed
three tears: one of water, two of
blood.

"Matters of Honor" when Marcus gets his pin back after sending it to Delenn as a message.

As for Sinclair's Fan's question, I agree with JoeD80. It would take time for the Minbari people to accept that a member of the race that killed Dukhat carried the soul and DNA of their greatest leader, Valen. Delenn's proven herself capable of manipulating belief and manufacturing miracles, though. I imagine that eventually she'll manage to soften the whole 'pure' Minbari dogma.

Jan

[Sinclair's Fan]

I'm not sure about them being told about Sinclair's fate specifically, but I think it's implied by the overall story that the day will come when the Minbari can accept the human/Minbari DNA mixing. Certainly the fact that Sheridan & Delenn have a son together will ease the transition to accepting it.

I imagine that eventually Delenn'll manage to soften the whole 'pure' Minbari dogma.
Jan

Ah, I like the way that you're both thinking! Thanks for your input, you've given me something positive to think about.

Cheers!

[Marsden]

You can even ask if it's common knowlege what happens to B4? I think EA would've like to know.
I think the official conclusion, as of 2258 when Sinclair organized the rescue of the crew, that it was gone. but why and where, and how? and even who?
I don't think Sheridan and crew called up Earth afterwards and admitted it.
So, B4 and Sinclair disappeared.

I don't think anyone in the 2200s would have known, but maybe in the time of the 3200s when discussing the prophecies of Delenn the Third they may know the full story.

[Sinclair's Fan]

Yeah, I like the idea that one day they know.

[JoeD80]

This was another thought I was having last time I watched the show. I read the 10-page outline, and started reading every jms post while watching the show. (In other words, if he posted 20 things between Midnight and Soul Hunter i would read those posts between watching those episodes. That took quite awhile for the full five years!)

So this is what I noticed - Joe said early on around pilot time that the third age of mankind couldn't be explained, because overall thats what the 5-year arc was about. In the 10-page outline it's specifically mentioned that it's the combining of human and minbari. Joe said the ranger pin was a hint to the third age. Sheridan said that the third age was about controlling their own fates. After that point is when Sheridan and Delenn finally have a child together. Zathras in War Without End says that they will "create the next great story." Someone once asked Joe if David was the third age, and he said something like "not as such." My thought - David is the one who brings the Third Age fully into being, which includes the acceptance of the human/minbari DNA mix.

[Sinclair's Fan]

My thought - David is the one who brings the Third Age fully into being, which includes the acceptance of the human/minbari DNA mix.

Cool, I like the sound of that..., especially if he says "I'm not the first; we began in the time of Valen with Valen himself." Very cool.

This was another thought I was having last time I watched the show. I read the 10-page outline, and started reading every jms post while watching the show. (In other words, if he posted 20 things between Midnight and Soul Hunter i would read those posts between watching those episodes. That took quite awhile for the full five years!)

Was the outline ever made available to purchase? I'd like to read it. And is there anywhere I can find Joe's posts please?

Cheers!

[Ubik]

Was the outline ever made available to purchase? I'd like to read it. And is there anywhere I can find Joe's posts please?

Cheers!

I think a lot of Joe's posts are archived right here on JMS News. Use the search function or the calendar on the front page.

It would have been amazing to see David's storyline played out in full, what with the Keeper and all.

[Marsden]

I think a lot of Joe's posts are archived right here on JMS News. Use the search function or the calendar on the front page.

It would have been amazing to see David's storyline played out in full, what with the Keeper and all.

Well, you have to read the Centauri trilogy! Really, I feel like it's my sixth season, or about half of one, I think they could squeeze about 3 episodes per book out of it. But there's no "b" stories, so maybe more. Either way David is in it.

..., which includes the acceptance of the human/minbari DNA mix.

Does this mean there is future intermarrying between the species?

It seems like the DNA is really only going in one direction, Sinclair/Valen introduced it to the Minbari, but no one gave Minbari DNA to the Humans.

[Sinclair's Fan]

I think a lot of Joe's posts are archived right here on JMS News. Use the search function or the calendar on the front page.

Ah, of course; I usually type jmsnews.com/forums into the navi' bar and skip right past the front page! Thanks for reminding me of its existance.

It seems like the DNA is really only going in one direction, Sinclair/Valen introduced it to the Minbari, but no one gave Minbari DNA to the Humans.

Hmmm, not sure about their DNA..., but the Minbari certainly believe the Humans received their souls!

[JoeD80]

Was the outline ever made available to purchase? I'd like to read it.

It was one of the bonuses in volume 15 of the script books. There are some summaries of it online but I don't know the links off the top of my head.

It seems like the DNA is really only going in one direction, Sinclair/Valen introduced it to the Minbari, but no one gave Minbari DNA to the Humans.

Uh Delenn to David? If Delenn is now half-Minbari, then David is at least 1/4 Minbari, so if David has children, they'll have some Minbari DNA.

[Marsden]

Uh Delenn to David? If Delenn is now half-Minbari, then David is at least 1/4 Minbari, so if David has children, they'll have some Minbari DNA.

Right! I missed that completely. So by the time of the Ranger leaving Earth then they would probably be a lot of mixing. I don't know why I didn't think of that. So David is kind of like the answer to Valen, sort of.

[Jan]

Right! I missed that completely. So by the time of the Ranger leaving Earth then they would probably be a lot of mixing. I don't know why I didn't think of that. So David is kind of like the answer to Valen, sort of.

I thought that was part of the prophecy that Delenn was fulfilling when she made the change? I've always wished we'd gotten a clearer idea of that part.

Jan

[DaveNarn]

So this is what I noticed - Joe said early on around pilot time that the third age of mankind couldn't be explained, because overall thats what the 5-year arc was about.

The 3rd age of man brings to mind the title of a 1923 book by Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, "Das Dritte Reich" (The Third Reich), and no he wasn't a Nazi.