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  • #76
    Hello, Sebastian! I too am new here... although I've been lurking on the site for many years. Sadly it was the recent tragic news of Michael O'Hare's untimely demise which prompted me to join and talk about him.

    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    Catherine (who we will introduce in season one), is mind-raped
    This is the exact thing I was going to talk about. Although the Babylon Prime storyline (had it actually gone ahead) would've been very cool because it'd mean I'd get to see plenty of Jeffrey, I must admit that the idea of seeing his beloved Catherine raped, even if only in the mind, is utterly too horrid for me. By that token, I'm glad that it didn't go ahead after all.

    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair View Post
    If you can get hold of a copy, read the canon spin-off novel "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows". Then you will find out exactly what happened to her ... up to a point.
    Thanks, GH! I'd also like to recommend a mini-series of comics, (which was also published as a single omnibus edition), called In Valen's Name. Although not really a Catherine Sakai story, the final message from the past to be found by our beloved heroes does spell out who she ended up with. Darn it all, there's no emoticon wearing a wedding dress...!

    For more on Sinclair's and Garibaldi's adventures and friendship, try these;
    Originally posted by Sinclair's Fan View Post
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Babylon-5-J-.../dp/1852866462
    Sinclair leaves B5 for Earth and later, Minbar. This adventure is mentioned in To Dream In The City Of Sorrows...

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Babylon-5-Sh.../dp/1852867353
    Garibaldi's adventure!

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/re...55e807035348a6
    Valen!

    I know these aren't everyone's cup of tea, but I highly recommend them.
    Hello again, Jan;
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    The original Trek will always be one of my three Capital F Fandoms.
    That's funny; my 'Big 3' are Original Trek, Babylon 5, and Flash Gordon (1979) !
    Last edited by Sinclair's Fan; 01-23-2013, 10:51 AM.

    Comment


    • #77
      A few odds & ends on various topics in the thread:

      Thanks again, Joe! ThatÆs very interesting and good point about the Morden angle. IÆve listened to all of the DVD commentaries but donÆt know much ôbehind the scenesö information other than that.

      If you can get hold of a copy, read the canon spin-off novel "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows". Then you will find out exactly what happened to her ... up to a point.
      Uh-oh, that sounds ominous. Thanks for the info, though! IÆll admit my curiosity is definitely piqued.

      And thank you, too, SinclairÆs Fan, for those links. IÆm always looking for something new to read.

      Re: Sinclair. The difference between Sheridan & Sinclair is the difference between those people you probably know in real life: one who lights up a room as soon as he enters and another who is more quiet & perhaps off-putting for a while but grows on you and you eventually like. And I do like Sinclair, but overall I think the addition of Sheridan incalculably strengthened the show and Bruce Boxleitner brought tremendous energy to the role that the rest of the cast fed off of. He was also more convincing with his emotions.

      But I donÆt think the show would be as interesting if it had started with Sheridan. As it stands, thatÆs one more twist unique to B5 and it paves the way for the truly excellent War Without End later on. So while I prefer Sheridan, the case can be made for Sinclair as a complex character who internalizes a lot of his feelings and really, really does have a ôgreat destinyö as Zathrus tells him. ThereÆs also something very cool thinking about him embarking on a great war against the Shadows as Valen and eventually having the family that he otherwise never would have had (since Sheridan ended up with Delenn). Were there ever any novels/comics written about that?

      Re: nÆgrath. I appreciate what they were trying to do and I prefer puppets such as Pilot & Rygel on Farscape vs. indiscriminate CGI, but I was never big on nÆgrath. I donÆt think he was well done compared to, say, Kosh. First of all, he wasnÆt a character so much as he was merely deus ex machina for bad guys, e.g. ôOkay, how would this Soul Hunter be able to not only elude security but break into DelennÆs quarters to kidnap her? NÆgrath!ö Secondly, as puppets go, nÆgrath left something to be desired. I liked Rygel because of the incredible amount of life the puppet was able to exude, particularly in facial expressions. NÆgrath had no facial expressions and his movements were very herky-jerky, like something youÆd find at Chuck E. Cheese. But at least his voice was cool.

      Re: IvanovaÆs comic relief roles. Agree. I like her character but those moments seem a bitàoff. The ôHey there, hey there, three bags fullö sex dance from season 2 is forever burned into my mind (though it still makes me LOL when the stunned alien responds with, ôPerhaps IÆllàcall you.ö)

      Things blow up and people looked concerned as the station faces an indistinct threat the promo department didn't understand...on the next Babylon 5.
      Hahahaha! Classic. DidnÆt they sometimes mix footage from other episodes for the promos to spice things up a bit? Perhaps IÆm wrong but it seems like I remember that. A friend of mine & I used to goof on the promos all the time. WeÆd often narrate our own promos for episodes while watching (MST3k style), like the one where Lennier helps Garibaldi build the Kawasaki: ôAn underground motorcycle race decides the fate of the station *scene with L & G riding around followed by Lady LadiraÆs vision of B5 exploding* on the next Babylon 5!ö
      "You don't like it here, do you? You'd rather you were back in your quarters, asleep, dreaming dreams of glory."

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Ubik View Post
        Welcome Sebastian! What a great appraisal of 'And the Sky is Full of Stars'. I used to be a TNG nut too, until B5 came along a wiped the floor with it. I was in my early teens and was always annoyed that in TNG they backed away from a fight, and anything approaching overarching plot lines.

        When I first saw B5 it just clicked with me. Sure, it didn't look as good as TNG, or have half the budget, but what it did have was everything TNG was missing; intrigue, long term story arcs and REAL SPACE BATTLES! The teenage me loved that!
        Greetings Sebastian and welcome.

        For my money TOS was the best Trek because of the since of humor and fun.
        The crew faced adversity together from within and without. And sometimes the crew was allowed to be flawed as part of that adversity.
        They were beyond Exploring as much as Enterprise, more likely patrolling federation space and occasionally making first contact.
        The show managed to do a lot with the resources.

        Gene Roddenberry attempted to improve this concept in the TNG by making the Federation a Utopia, thus eliminating crew conflict and making everyone noble.
        It had it's share of standout shows - like Yesterdays Enterprise.
        Seems most people grew up with this show and like a first love remember it fondly.
        Nothing wrong with that but I'm a little older and feel it was a little too vanilla.

        TOS is Rock 'n Roll to TNGs easy listening.

        Then there was DS9, out of the gate with conflict, issues and lots of baggage.
        Rick Berman had been protecting Gene's dream had to make concetions to the writers that needed conflict and adveristy to write about.

        Naturally as the popularity of DS9 began to dwindle - IMHO they 'borrowed' a few ideas from the dark horse, B5.
        I really liked the Cardassians, they are great villains and much more interesting than the Romulans.

        Enterprise is also the best...only because it was the last.
        Some goofy stories, a nice crew, little submarine ship always out-gunned (awesome), plenty of crew conflict and adversity. I think they tried to be the most realistic and drew lot's of flack for it.

        ...but of course nothing beats Babylon 5

        end of rant

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
          A few odds & ends on various topics in the thread:

          Re: n’grath. I appreciate what they were trying to do and I prefer puppets such as Pilot & Rygel on Farscape vs. indiscriminate CGI, but I was never big on n’grath. I don’t think he was well done compared to, say, Kosh. First of all, he wasn’t a character so much as he was merely deus ex machina for bad guys, e.g. “Okay, how would this Soul Hunter be able to not only elude security but break into Delenn’s quarters to kidnap her? N’grath!” Secondly, as puppets go, n’grath left something to be desired. I liked Rygel because of the incredible amount of life the puppet was able to exude, particularly in facial expressions. N’grath had no facial expressions and his movements were very herky-jerky, like something you’d find at Chuck E. Cheese. But at least his voice was cool.
          As we all know n'grath had a long and illustrious acting career, and at the height of his success, his talents were always in demand. Few actors could equal his emotional range and chameleonic adaptability. I try not to think about that sad final stretch, his career in tatters, slumming it at Chuck E. Cheese as a B list celeb. I'd always tip double, and whisper under my breath 'that's for B5... have a drink on me'. RIP n'grath.

          Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
          Re: Ivanova’s comic relief roles. Agree. I like her character but those moments seem a bit…off. The “Hey there, hey there, three bags full” sex dance from season 2 is forever burned into my mind (though it still makes me LOL when the stunned alien responds with, “Perhaps I’ll…call you.”)
          Right there with you man. Did you ever see her in 'Freaks and Geeks' as Bill's mum? That role really made me appreciate her acting, she absolutely shines in that show. Oh... and anyone who hasn't seen it, Freaks and Geeks is utterly superb TV. Can't recommend it enough.
          Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

          Kosh: Good!

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
            Re: n’grath. I appreciate what they were trying to do and I prefer puppets such as Pilot & Rygel on Farscape vs. indiscriminate CGI, but I was never big on n’grath. I don’t think he was well done compared to, say, Kosh. First of all, he wasn’t a character so much as he was merely deus ex machina for bad guys, e.g. “Okay, how would this Soul Hunter be able to not only elude security but break into Delenn’s quarters to kidnap her? N’grath!” Secondly, as puppets go, n’grath left something to be desired. I liked Rygel because of the incredible amount of life the puppet was able to exude, particularly in facial expressions. N’grath had no facial expressions and his movements were very herky-jerky, like something you’d find at Chuck E. Cheese. But at least his voice was cool.
            Regarding n'grath: I'm not trying to argue, because you're right, but he seemed to be an insect kind of person and they do tend to have jerky movements. Crappy effects or an attempt of physiological accuracy? Bullshit or not You be the judge! He was a bit too convienient at times, but then you also had Duce and Deveraux and a whole bunch of nasty customers that were in "the mob" I think n'grath got eliminated by the competion.

            I highly recomend To Dream in the City of Sorrows, also The Shadow Within and the 3 trilogies. As far as the comics, I recomend the summaries on The Lurker's Guide. I did find issue 1 of the B5 comic and well the story is right there with the series but the art is not good, I'd much rather a print version and The Lurker's did that with their synopsis. http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/comic/index.html


            Claudia Christian had a really crazy role in the movie Hexed. It was silly but I really liked it, and one scene is really similar to what she did with Curmudgon or whatever his name is from the Illuminati. BTW, it's a body double.

            DaveNarn made a great summation of 40 years of trek in one neat little post. And I hate being spoken down to, also. Captain Kirk, "Green leaves!" comment contrast to the how dare you have a burger stare. I remember that episode really well, plus the one where they find the 3 people frozen since the 20th century and the crew pretty much tells them how wrong they are about everything. Judgemental. I'm sorry I don't want to pick on TNG, I did like it but unlike Original and B5 I've never really wanted to see it again in repeats. I bought the new Original Star Trek DVDs with the all CGI ships and it is great! The old effects are gone, but they didn't over do it with the new. I highly recomend it and will try not to mention Star Trek again.

            I'm really enjoying this, I hope it doesn't stop.
            Last edited by Marsden; 01-23-2013, 07:48 PM.
            "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
            "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

            "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
              I think the addition of Sheridan incalculably strengthened the show and Bruce Boxleitner brought tremendous energy to the role that the rest of the cast fed off of.
              I'm a big fan of Bruce Boxleitner, I have been ever since I first saw him in the original Tron, and I agree; John "Nuke 'Em" Sheridan works much better in a story like Thirdspace than my old pal Sinclair would have..., but at the same time, that's kind of what works so well about Sinclair; with his personality you can really believe in him as an ambassador, and as a leader of warrior monks (as Ranger 1), and eventually as... (SPOILER!)... Valen. All in all, I think these two different characters, Sheridan and Sinclair, turned out in the best way possible for each. Just my opinion.
              Last edited by Sinclair's Fan; 01-24-2013, 01:51 AM. Reason: small correction.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Ubik View Post
                I try not to think about that sad final stretch, his career in tatters, slumming it at Chuck E. Cheese as a B list celeb. I'd always tip double, and whisper under my breath 'that's for B5... have a drink on me'. RIP n'grath.

                Right there with you man. Did you ever see her in 'Freaks and Geeks' as Bill's mum? That role really made me appreciate her acting, she absolutely shines in that show. Oh... and anyone who hasn't seen it, Freaks and Geeks is utterly superb TV. Can't recommend it enough.
                I saw him at Disney World, working as Goofy. His pincers had ripped through the gloves & he had booze on his breath. Poor n'grath

                Have not seen Freaks & Geeks, though. I'll have to give it a watch.

                Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                DaveNarn made a great summation of 40 years of trek in one neat little post.
                No argument here!

                Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                I remember that episode really well, plus the one where they find the 3 people frozen since the 20th century and the crew pretty much tells them how wrong they are about everything. Judgemental.

                I'm really enjoying this, I hope it doesn't stop.
                Oh yeah, I remember that one, too. I never finished DS9 or Voyager but there aren't many TNG episodes I can't instantly recall. And same here, this is a blast

                And great points about Sheridan vs. Sinclair, S.F. You're right: I cannot imagine Sheridan happily leading a life as Ranger 1 on Minbar, especially when he went so stir crazy early in Season 2 after being reassigned.

                Let me sneak in a couple more episode comments:

                Midnight on the Firing Line: I thought this was a very good episode when you consider B5 was a fledgling sci-fi series going up against the TNG behemoth and coming off what I consider a decidedly sub-par pilot (no offense, Sinclair Fan!). Something I havenÆt seen discussed yet is the one space battle element B5 had that Trek didnÆt: fighters! I instantly warmed to the Starfuries the first time I saw them and the big battles that take place later on in the series put space combat scenes from TNG to shame, as Ubrik mentioned. The raider battle at the station is the first taste of whatÆs to come. I especially like how they applied real physics to the way theyÆd "drop" out of the station (always love watching that bit) & move about with their thrusters, doing all those things you canÆt do in an atmospheric environment, like instant 180 degree rotations to blast someone on your tail.

                Additionally: the jump gate sequence is very cool.

                This also introduces the intense Narn/Centauri conflict and paints Londo as a poor victim and GÆkar as the brutal aggressor (a recurring situation in the first season), paving the way for some incredible character development down the road. There is some masterful misdirection during season 1 and how one feels about certain characters at the end of this episode will be completely turned around by season 2.

                We are also introuduced to the intergalactic delicacy known as ôspooö, which Londo wastefully knocks from GÆkarÆs hand onto the floor. Sad, sad

                Regarding KoshÆs many cryptic statements: I love, love, LOVE that after you watch the series you can go back to hear them again and they all make sense (except perhaps the one with Talia, but there were extenuating circumstances, there).

                Final note: I really liked how Sinclair (and later, Sheridan) constantly got beaten around by civilian politicians back home. That made for some great conflict. Yet another intriguing element in B5 that was missing from TNG.

                Born to the Purple: I also like this one. It humanizes Londo (if a Centauri can be humanized) and makes us like & feel bad for him, which again setting us up for big changes later. An amusing part is when Sinclair & Londo go to the club to try and fool the manager so they can get info on what happened to LondoÆs dancer crush. Londo wears a hood and Sinclair just changes his clothes. BEST. DISGUISES. EVER. And I guess they were, b/c the club manager didnÆt recognize one of his most high profile customers nor the station commander. Derp derp.

                Sadly, Londo gets one of the coldest disses of all time when he asks Adira to stay with him: ôThe wounds are still too fresh.ö Oh, I see. Well thanks for opening another bigger, fresher wound, then. Ouch.
                "You don't like it here, do you? You'd rather you were back in your quarters, asleep, dreaming dreams of glory."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Well, I finally got my DVD and watched Midnight.

                  First thing that strikes me so long after seeing it all many times through is it was a bit of a "no mystery" mystery about who attacked Ragesh 3, when you see the Narn ships and fighters, but at the time you wouldn't know what a Narn ship would look like, which is another reason I don't recomend the skip most of the first season or even just skip around approach, there's something in every episode. Even revealing 3 or 4 years later that G'kar's offer of fresh spoo was insulting.

                  I also can't believe how many things are set up in this one episode.

                  I mean, I thought Talia was chasing Ivanova, that seemed more than, "I have to check in" and with her second personality revealed 2 years later, it tracks.

                  What the hell is a Vorlon anyway? He set that up right there even though the enormity of it comes about 2 years later.

                  The Narn Centauri animosity in general and Londo and G'kar's in particular. Including Londo's dream. And a particular point about that scene regarding Michael O'Hare, I don't see how anyone can knock his acting. The look on his face when Londo says "I will kill him, you know" is perfect. I also got the feeling Sinclair voted for Marie Claire, too.

                  The raiders storyline which mostly ends still in the first season.

                  Finally, what is Garibaldi eating there? They look kind of look like big sweet potatoes cut in half and standing up on the cut side.
                  "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
                  "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

                  "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                    Even revealing 3 or 4 years later that G'kar's offer of fresh spoo was insulting.
                    Truly? I forgot all about that. The only other spoo reference I remember is in the technomage episode as, when Londo's system is infected, he wearily announces to Vir that he now owns a spoo ranch.

                    Going to toss in thoughts on one more episode for the day:

                    The War Prayer: IÆm going to nominate this one for worst episode of the first season. First (and worst) of all, itÆs the stereotypical ôRacismÆs bad mmmkay, kids?ö episode. Yeah, okay, I GET IT! I know theyÆre laying the groundwork for the rising anti-alien sentiment, but it was much better done in other episodes. That is, sore feelings about getting slaughtered in the Minbari War & paranoia about aliens allegedly buying up land on Earth vs. ôWeÆre going to kill aliens because they have stupid fins and scales on their heads! Rabble rabble rabble!ö

                    Secondly, the Centauri girl looks like sheÆs wearing a bowl tied to her head. ItÆs so bad I canÆt help but focus on that during any scene with her. It falls well short of the high standard of makeup effects B5 was known for.

                    Third, about the never-to-be-seen-again stealth suits: so they were top secret, produced by the boys back at Earth Force R&D, yet fell off the radar and were nabbed by the Conspiracy of Racism? And they do what with this incredible technology? Send them to Babylon 5 to enable stabbings of Minbari beat poets & Centauri teenagers? Seriously? ThatÆs the plan leading up to ôkill every ambassador on the stationö? Lucky for our heroes that Malcolm & his racist friends decided to put the station fully on alert with those pointless assaults, then reveal their entire plan to the station CDR & XO before carrying out their objective.

                    ItÆs also lucky the bad guys all simultaneously forgot they were wearing the stealth suits during the fight in the cargo bay. Could have ended much differently, otherwise.

                    I know GaribaldiÆs aide later on derisively refers to this group as a bunch of misfits but if thatÆs the case how are they lifting those stealth suits straight from the assembly line? DoesnÆt jibe.

                    Lastly: MalcomÆs sweater during that one scene in the Zocalo is simply unacceptable. ôSee what youÆve been missing, Susan? Eh? Eh?ö

                    The silver lining is a bit of development with Ivanova as we see that she hasnÆt had many successful relationships. She looks pretty broken up when she realizes that, yes, Malcom has become a despicable bastard and was probably only using her to further his own plans.

                    It also features one of LondoÆs best bits of dialogue ever as he discusses Centauri marriage and his wives, ôFamine, Pestilence, and Death! Knowing they are back at home waiting for me on Centauri Prime is what keeps me here on Babylon 5, thousands of light years away.ö
                    "You don't like it here, do you? You'd rather you were back in your quarters, asleep, dreaming dreams of glory."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
                      Truly? I forgot all about that. The only other spoo reference I remember is in the technomage episode as, when Londo's system is infected, he wearily announces to Vir that he now owns a spoo ranch.

                      Going to toss in thoughts on one more episode for the day:

                      The War Prayer: I’m going to nominate this one for worst episode of the first season. First (and worst) of all, it’s the stereotypical “Racism’s bad mmmkay, kids?” episode. Yeah, okay, I GET IT! I know they’re laying the groundwork for the rising anti-alien sentiment, but it was much better done in other episodes. That is, sore feelings about getting slaughtered in the Minbari War & paranoia about aliens allegedly buying up land on Earth vs. “We’re going to kill aliens because they have stupid fins and scales on their heads! Rabble rabble rabble!”

                      Secondly, the Centauri girl looks like she’s wearing a bowl tied to her head. It’s so bad I can’t help but focus on that during any scene with her. It falls well short of the high standard of makeup effects B5 was known for.

                      Third, about the never-to-be-seen-again stealth suits: so they were top secret, produced by the boys back at Earth Force R&D, yet fell off the radar and were nabbed by the Conspiracy of Racism? And they do what with this incredible technology? Send them to Babylon 5 to enable stabbings of Minbari beat poets & Centauri teenagers? Seriously? That’s the plan leading up to “kill every ambassador on the station”? Lucky for our heroes that Malcolm & his racist friends decided to put the station fully on alert with those pointless assaults, then reveal their entire plan to the station CDR & XO before carrying out their objective.

                      It’s also lucky the bad guys all simultaneously forgot they were wearing the stealth suits during the fight in the cargo bay. Could have ended much differently, otherwise.

                      I know Garibaldi’s aide later on derisively refers to this group as a bunch of misfits but if that’s the case how are they lifting those stealth suits straight from the assembly line? Doesn’t jibe.

                      Lastly: Malcom’s sweater during that one scene in the Zocalo is simply unacceptable. “See what you’ve been missing, Susan? Eh? Eh?”

                      The silver lining is a bit of development with Ivanova as we see that she hasn’t had many successful relationships. She looks pretty broken up when she realizes that, yes, Malcom has become a despicable bastard and was probably only using her to further his own plans.

                      It also features one of Londo’s best bits of dialogue ever as he discusses Centauri marriage and his wives, “Famine, Pestilence, and Death! Knowing they are back at home waiting for me on Centauri Prime is what keeps me here on Babylon 5, thousands of light years away.”
                      Am really enjoying your assessment of these episodes, and your views seem very much in line with my own. Keep it up, I'll chime in on some other Season One eps when I get time to write something more substantial. I watched 'Eyes' last night, some of which had me in stitches due to a somewhat unlikely association.
                      Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

                      Kosh: Good!

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Sebastian View Post
                        Truly? I forgot all about that. The only other spoo reference I remember is in the technomage episode as, when Londo's system is infected, he wearily announces to Vir that he now owns a spoo ranch.
                        Don't forget, also, that it was because of the difference in taste in how the Narn and Centauri like their spoo that was the clue that G'Kar latched onto that led to the discovery of Na'Toth being held prisoner in the Palace dungeons.

                        First (and worst) of all, itÆs the stereotypical ôRacismÆs bad mmmkay, kids?ö episode. Yeah, okay, I GET IT! I know theyÆre laying the groundwork for the rising anti-alien sentiment, but it was much better done in other episodes. That is, sore feelings about getting slaughtered in the Minbari War & paranoia about aliens allegedly buying up land on Earth vs. ôWeÆre going to kill aliens because they have stupid fins and scales on their heads! Rabble rabble rabble!ö
                        Not just that, though. When B5 was being made, anti-Japanese sentiments were really high including paranoia about Japanese interests buying up lots of US properties. You could have switched out 'aliens' with 'Japanese' (and less complimentary terms) in the dialogue and been transfered to the early '90s.

                        Lucky for our heroes that Malcolm & his racist friends decided to put the station fully on alert with those pointless assaults, then reveal their entire plan to the station CDR & XO before carrying out their objective.
                        That always bugged me some, too. Yeah, the conspirators want to make contacts with high ranked people but Malcolm was just stupid. And it never struck me that Susan would fall in love with somebody that dense.

                        It also features one of LondoÆs best bits of dialogue ever as he discusses Centauri marriage and his wives, ôFamine, Pestilence, and Death! Knowing they are back at home waiting for me on Centauri Prime is what keeps me here on Babylon 5, thousands of light years away.ö
                        I prefer the "My shoes are too tight. But it doesn't matter because I've forgotten how to dance." Londo sure had some of the best lines, that's for sure.

                        Jan
                        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Ubik View Post
                          Am really enjoying your assessment of these episodes, and your views seem very much in line with my own. Keep it up, I'll chime in on some other Season One eps when I get time to write something more substantial.
                          Thanks! I'm enjoying seeing what everyone else has to say, also. Only two of my friends have watched B5 all the way through, so all the discussion here is most welcome.

                          Originally posted by Jan View Post
                          I prefer the "My shoes are too tight. But it doesn't matter because I've forgotten how to dance." Londo sure had some of the best lines, that's for sure.
                          I like that one, too, but I was caught off guard at how, er, "fondly" Londo referred to his wives. Obviously a man with a lot of personal baggage.

                          And just in case anyone out there doesn't remember Malcom's infamous sweater:





                          "I tell ya, every time I wear this sweater I have to fight the human ladies off with a stick. The alien ones I fight off with a knife."

                          *ba-domp, psshh!*
                          "You don't like it here, do you? You'd rather you were back in your quarters, asleep, dreaming dreams of glory."

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            You know, the difference in quality between TNG and B5 is not because of how they portray the future. They're going for entirely different things, after all: B5 is an extrapolation of what the future might be (based on where we are now), TNG is about showing us what it *could* be (i.e. what we are capable of, at our best). In many ways, they have similiar ideals, it's just that TNG is about where we might end up and B5 is about getting there.

                            The difference in quality has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the fact that most of Star Trek is dreadfully written. Gene Roddenberry had an amazing talent for casting the right people, but the writers involved, even if talented, were not capable of transforming his vision into words. Between their strong technophobic/luddite tendencies, their inability to imagine a post-scarcity society, their tendency to overlook how much camaraderie (rather than the hack writer's crutch of "conflict") mattered to the original show, their increasing reliance on technobabble, and in many cases their inability to puts words together, most Star Trek episodes simply fail at the script level. (And let's not forget all those last-minute rewrites and just how many episodes are "riffs" on this movie or that.)

                            And I say all this as someone who loves Trek. But I love Trek for what it could be, for what it sometimes briefly manages to be. Whereas B5 I admire as I admire any masterpiece, be it Tolkien or Tolstoy. It's not without flaws, but it is a complex, adult work.

                            Incidentally - if you want to see how utopian science fiction can be done right, read some of Iain M. Banks' Culture novels. Funny, emotional, philosophical - showing us the potential of civilization and asking many challenging questions at the same time.
                            Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Jonas View Post
                              You know, the difference in quality between TNG and B5 is not because of how they portray the future. They're going for entirely different things, after all: B5 is an extrapolation of what the future might be (based on where we are now), TNG is about showing us what it *could* be (i.e. what we are capable of, at our best). In many ways, they have similiar ideals, it's just that TNG is about where we might end up and B5 is about getting there.


                              The difference in quality has nothing to do with that.
                              . . .
                              A very good point.

                              And I say all this as someone who loves Trek. But I love Trek for what it could be, for what it sometimes briefly manages to be. Whereas B5 I admire as I admire any masterpiece, be it Tolkien or Tolstoy. It's not without flaws, but it is a complex, adult work.
                              Similar sentiments here. Also, while B5 can be compared with "an epic novel", I invariably consider Trek "a series of short stories" . Many are bound to be poor, but some stand out as excellent.

                              Incidentally - if you want to see how utopian science fiction can be done right, read some of Iain M. Banks' Culture novels. Funny, emotional, philosophical - showing us the potential of civilization and asking many challenging questions at the same time.
                              Looks like I will be looking into Ian M. Banks this year or next year - looking forward to it. Thanks for your recommendation, even if I planned to star anyway. IIRC he will be guest of honour at the Loncon3 (Worldcon 2014), so I plan to read some of his stuff before going there.

                              - and I will be starting my own rewatch soon . . .
                              Jan from Denmark

                              My blog :

                              http://www.babylonlurker.dk

                              "Our thoughts form the Universe - they *always* matter"

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by babylonlurker View Post

                                Looks like I will be looking into Ian M. Banks this year or next year - looking forward to it. Thanks for your recommendation, even if I planned to star anyway. IIRC he will be guest of honour at the Loncon3 (Worldcon 2014), so I plan to read some of his stuff before going there.
                                Bit of a digression here, but just to say that Ian M Banks is excellent.

                                To begin with I'd stick to his 'Culture' novels (for his SF output), they tend to be the better ones. I'd probably recommend you start with 'Look to Windward'.

                                'Player of Games' and 'Use of Weapons' are also worth a look. 'The State of the Art' is also great as an introduction; it's a collection of short stories. It's not exclusively SF and Culture based content, but you get a good impression of his range as a writer. The Culture novels would make for wonderful TV if anyone could ever be convinced to fork over the cash to adapt them.
                                Captain John Sheridan: I really *hate* it when you do that.

                                Kosh: Good!

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