The "Big" questions thread

[Marsden]

Hi, everybody! By our Moderator, Jan Naranek's leave, I thought I'd start this up for some discussion of the "big" issues B5 covered. The small stuff can go in the random questions thread, this is for bigger concepts that may really have no answer but can be really good to discuss.


One is who won the Shadow war?

Another is in the Earth Alliance civil war of 2260-61, would you be a rebel with or not with Sheridan or stay loyal to Clark or just wait it out?

I'll get the ball rolling, soon, but I wanted to start this without putting my own opinion on it right away. I know there's many regular readers and posters here an I'd like to see what you think.

[Jonas]

One is who won the Shadow war?

In a sense, no-one; the point was that you cannot win by winning, you can only win by understand what is causing the conflict in the first place. In another sense, everyone: because the origins of the conflict were understood, the conflict was finally ended, allowing not only the younger races to be freed from control/interference, but also allowing the First Ones to let go of their fear and hate.

[OmahaStar]

One is who won the Shadow war?

Everyone. Jane was imprisoned as a direct result of the Shadow War. Once it was over, and their allies in the President's office gone g'bye, Jane was freed, and returned to the airwaves.

Thus, everyone won.

[Jan]

[QUOTE=Marsden;70037]Hi, everybody! By our Moderator, Jan Naranek's leave, I thought I'd start this up for some discussion of the "big" issues B5 covered. The small stuff can go in the random questions thread, this is for bigger concepts that may really have no answer but can be really good to discuss. [quote]
Happy to give leave but nobody needs my permission to start any discussion they want. The more the better! The most I might do to interfere is to move it to a different forum and remind people of fanfic and story idea rules.

One is who won the Shadow war?[

The younger races. Which was the way it was supposed to be in the first place. the Shadows and Vorlons stayed behind to help shepherd the younger races but lost their way and ended up fighting against each other, using the younger races as pawns. Once the younger races decided not to allow themselves to be used anymore, the First Ones realized that it was time to step asside as they'd meant to originally.

Another is in the Earth Alliance civil war of 2260-61, would you be a rebel with or not with Sheridan or stay loyal to Clark or just wait it out?

Good question. Assuming that I were in the military, I'm prone to think that it would depend on the position I held. If it were just me, with no responsibility for anybody else and no way of effecting events, I think that I'd resign and try to find a way to help the resistance from outside the miltary.

But if, like Lochley, I were a ships captain responsible for the lives of everybody serving in my command, I'd probably lay low, knowing that an order I couldn't morally follow might come any time but following legal orders as they came.

And if I were in a unique situation like Sheridan's...you know, I honestly don't know. Because as much of a hero as he was, he jeopardized the lives of not only the military under his command but thousands and thousands of civilians, too. It would be hard to weigh those lives against the unique situation the B5 station was in to become a base and focus for the rebellion.

Who's up next?

Jan

[Jonas]

Another is in the Earth Alliance civil war of 2260-61, would you be a rebel with or not with Sheridan or stay loyal to Clark or just wait it out?

I'd be a rebel, but I'd fight to make the movement more democratic and less Sheridan-focused (though I greatly admire him). I'd also speak in favour of making the movement more radical in its aims; my biggest problem with Sheridan is that he does very little to repair the problems that caused Clark's rise to power in the first place.

[lotjx]

1. The younger races. The Shadows and Vorlons could have kept the war going on til the end of time. The younger races needed to stand showing them that this was the last straw and they did. You could make an argument that the Vorlons won since they helped forge the main alliance with the Minbari and the Humans while the Centauri betrayed the Shadows when it counted. The younger races won with a bit of help in the beginning from the Vorlons.

2. Yes, oh God. Yes. I was thinking about how much I hated Lochley's speech about not joining up and how it sounded like a passionate drone who liked to follow orders. It was so wrong and stupid, it reminded me why she was a waste for most of season 5. Sheridan was also right in using force. When a dictator and his administration take over very rarely do they just give up power via the will of the people. There has to be violence to remove them. You can't hold hands and sing while praying for the best. Once you have a threat like a Clark who creates things like Nightwatch, curtails civil liberties and bombs innocent civilians, he needs to be taken out. Its just the amount of will and weapons you have to do it.

[Elric]

I never really looked at the conflict between the younger races and the first ones as any kind of war that was won or lost, rather I thought it was more of a philosophical culmination of the entire story arc. Look at where B5 starts - after the earth/minbari war, where they basically drove us all back to earth and had us at the brink of destruction, and then through the examination of Sinclair, realized a new purpose and let us live.

At the end of the story, we have the shadows and the vorlons running around and destroying whole races and planets, and basically doing the same type of thing. Again, one final conflict - and the presence of Lorien - forces them to re-evaluate and realize that it is time to find a new purpose.

The similarities are - at least for me - representative of the whole "history repeats itself" idea. In the first case - Sinclair is the focal point of the pinnacle of the conflict, as he was - and again later becomes - Valen, and his role mimics the one of Lorien, who mediates and orchestrates the end of the final conflict between the first ones and the younger races. As with all cases of history repeating itself, the players and minor details will differ, but the situation and resolution is nearly the same.

It is just this kind of underlying intellect that makes the story so appealing and workable for me. Truly - it is a shame there isn't more of it, but at the same time, when I see into the story at times like this, I understand why JMS has said that it was the story he wanted to tell, and that it has been told. From a fan point of view, I want more and more, but philosophically, the story has come full circle and is complete.

At least that's my opinion, and what the hell do I know anyway :=)

[Jonas]

At the end of the story, we have the shadows and the vorlons running around and destroying whole races and planets, and basically doing the same type of thing. Again, one final conflict - and the presence of Lorien - forces them to re-evaluate and realize that it is time to find a new purpose.

That's why I like to say that everyone won the Shadow War - including the Shadows and the Vorlons. They, too, were freed at Coriana 6.

[Marsden]

I think it's impossible to pin down as a win/loss situation, even though I phrased the question that way, but that was for simplicity.

What got me thinking about it the Interstellar Alliance. I don't know that it's what the Vorlon's wanted, but it seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Shadow's theory of chaos and strife would want. An ordered alliance that aids the weaker members and tries to stop combat between its members is against their proclaimed philosophy. The Vorlons didn't really state their position very clearly, so an alliance may not be what they wanted, but it seems more in line with their goals, although they really aren't well defined, either. My guess it the Vorlons wanted an ordered galaxy free from Shadow influence, so in that respect, I would say the Vorlons won, mostly. It's too bad the Vorlons couldn't swing by with one of those fleets and torch the Drahk on their way out. There isn't a clear winner, except the younger races are certainly benefiting from the end of hostilities. Maybe the Vorlons thought it was their time and didn't want to stay so they behaved as they did so that the younger races would allow them to go. Their extermination of Shadow minions would fit in with that concept, cleaning out the bad apples before leaving for good.

[DGTWoodward]

Did the SHADOW WAR Show Us What Evil Was?

That's why I like to say that everyone won the Shadow War - including the Shadows and the Vorlons. They, too, were freed at Coriana 6.

Exactly so, I agree 100%.

The Vorlons and the Shadows were just as locked into the cycle of war as the younger races. They both won in that they both realised that the time had actually come for them as elders to step away, and Lorien's arrival made that clear to them, finally.

(Keep this thought in mind as it does raise a bit of a paradox.)

The younger races won too, because they were no longer tied to the "I'm on the right side" mentality that even the V's and the S's had fallen into. They won the chance to become the next lot of 'older ones' as shown by "Deconstruction Of Fallen Stars"

As to the paradox that I mentioned. Despite how it looked, both the Vorlons and the Shadows really thought that what they were doing was actually helping the younger races to grow. Even though they did so by unleashing horrifically powerful weapons, and employing acts of what some might say were....evil, to accomplish it? Now after Lorien had shown them the error of their thinking, they accepted his word without question and agreed to leave the younger races to it, so my question is this...

Knowing as we do that the heart of it...the Vorlons and the Shadows really were trying to help the younger races, despite the horrific tactics they employed like destroying whole planets/populations...

...is the word "EVIL" one that can be applied to either of them?

(side note: lovely piece of voice acting from Ed Wasser as Morden/Shadow, asking Lorien if he will come with them...he sounds so much like a child asking a parent something, which I suppose was the idea).

PS: I cannot think of the word 'WAR' now without hearing, it in my head, how Andreas K used to say it, in that fantastic voice of his.

[Jonas]

What got me thinking about it the Interstellar Alliance. I don't know that it's what the Vorlon's wanted, but it seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Shadow's theory of chaos and strife would want. An ordered alliance that aids the weaker members and tries to stop combat between its members is against their proclaimed philosophy. The Vorlons didn't really state their position very clearly, so an alliance may not be what they wanted, but it seems more in line with their goals, although they really aren't well defined, either. My guess it the Vorlons wanted an ordered galaxy free from Shadow influence, so in that respect, I would say the Vorlons won, mostly. It's too bad the Vorlons couldn't swing by with one of those fleets and torch the Drahk on their way out. There isn't a clear winner, except the younger races are certainly benefiting from the end of hostilities. Maybe the Vorlons thought it was their time and didn't want to stay so they behaved as they did so that the younger races would allow them to go. Their extermination of Shadow minions would fit in with that concept, cleaning out the bad apples before leaving for good.

The Vorlons wanted order out of obedience, more akin to theocracy than anything else (which is why they appeared as angels, after all). The Interstellar Alliance is created through self-aware choice, not manipulation. Yes, it may be closer to what Vorlons like Kosh would have wanted, but the Vorlons themselves (as a political force) could never accomplish it, if only because their ego got in the way.

The younger races didn't "allow" the Vorlons to go, they told them to.

...is the word "EVIL" one that can be applied to either of them?

You could say that evil is what they do, not what they are.

(side note: lovely piece of voice acting from Ed Wasser as Morden/Shadow, asking Lorien if he will come with them...he sounds so much like a child asking a parent something, which I suppose was the idea).

I agree. It's such a beautiful, fragile moment - it suddenly reveals the "humanity" (if you will) of the Shadows. After being such a terrifying threat for so long, to suddenly see them simply being afraid is very moving.

[Doom Shepherd]

Knowing as we do that the heart of it...the Vorlons and the Shadows really were trying to help the younger races, despite the horrific tactics they employed like destroying whole planets/populations...

...is the word "EVIL" one that can be applied to either of them?

That, for me, is one of the most significant and interesting conundrums in all of B5. Because it's one of the most important ones in all of life: What matters most in the final analysis... intentions, actions, or results?

When all three components are "good" or "evil," judgment is easy. When they're mixed, it's hard.