Defending B5

[Elric]

Hello fellow B5 enthusiasts!!

I have read this forum for a long time, and have always enjoyed the thoughts and viewpoints of its participants, as well as valuing it for the continued information on developments within the B5 universe. As many of you have, I watched the series from the very beginning and have watched it several more times since. I have also read the books, particularly enjoying the three trilogies.

My biggest issue with B5 actually has nothing to do with B5 itself, it is the issue of constantly having to defend the series to all of my family, friends, etc...who are Star Trek and Star Wars fanatics, and for some reason, cannot appreciate the genius behind the B5 universe.

Don't get me wrong - I like ST and SW too, but B5 speaks to me on a completely different level, and one that - for me at least - is more realistic. The utopian vision of Roddenberry and crew whereby there is no longer any hunger, money, prejudice, etc...in the federation is a great ideal, but not one that I can realistically imagine. The original star trek was made when we were still in the cold war era, and most of the villians there represented that kind of thinking to me. The romulans and the klingons sat on their nukes on their side of the nuetral zones, and we sat on ours - so to speak. Yes - there was the occasional confrontation, but still - each side was well aware of what the other one could do, and would only push so far. Also - in the ST world, most everything was neatly wrapped up and solved in the one hour time slot each week which led to a lot of varied stories and topics, but - IMO - lacked story-line depth. Later incarnations of the series did attempt to address that, but certainly not on the level of a series-long story arc. Star Wars addressed some of these issues by not being invloved with Earth in any way. They had much more creative freedom for that very reason in my opinion. Because of the fact that there is no planet earth there, there is no specific time or frame of reference for comparison, so you can just judge the SW universe by the merits of its story, and that is - again in my opinion - an advantage. B5 - on the other hand, does include earth, and in fact earth plays a very central role. Even though it is set in the future, it is nice to see that JMS brought along the same everyday things that we deal with now in our own time, and by doing so - makes the experience seem more real. For example - there are no transporters on our ships. We use shuttles in and out of the station and from ship to ship - seems realistic. 'Down below' on the station shows that hunger, poverty, etc...are still things that we have not conquered. Money - credits - is still an issue, etc...I could go on and on, but you get my point.

The fact that B5 is a series long story, and has several sub-plots and mini-stories along the way - I would think these folks would appreciate the creativity and effort it had to take to pull that off, yet all I get is grief from them about watching it over and over. I really wish they could see what I see in B5. As many times as I have seen it, as many times as I have re-read the books, I am always amazed that each and every time - I see something I missed all the times before, and it is like discovering it all over again.

[Jan]

I've never understood why some fans seem to think that there have to be 'sides' taken when choosing what to enjoy. To me, that's just limiting your choices.

There are some fundamental differences in the B5 mode of storytelling, though. Perhaps another way of explaining what B5 is about is to let them know that one of B5's strengths is that it showed the whole process of how the policies gradually changed on Earth and how prejudice created conflict between 'mundanes' and telepaths, and how the Vorlons and Shadows created conflict in order to get the younger races to fight the battles the First Ones didn't want to fight themselves. That explanation gives a bit more depth than just telling them that the story has a beginning, middle and end.

In the end, there's no arguing with somebody's taste. But you should be firm that your taste is every bit as valid even if it's less mainstream. There were many long years when Trek wasn't at all mainstream.

Jan

[valens_shadow]

Hello fellow B5 enthusiasts!!

I have read this forum for a long time, and have always enjoyed the thoughts and viewpoints of its participants, as well as valuing it for the continued information on developments within the B5 universe. As many of you have, I watched the series from the very beginning and have watched it several more times since. I have also read the books, particularly enjoying the three trilogies.

My biggest issue with B5 actually has nothing to do with B5 itself, it is the issue of constantly having to defend the series to all of my family, friends, etc...who are Star Trek and Star Wars fanatics, and for some reason, cannot appreciate the genius behind the B5 universe.

Don't get me wrong - I like ST and SW too, but B5 speaks to me on a completely different level, and one that - for me at least - is more realistic. The utopian vision of Roddenberry and crew whereby there is no longer any hunger, money, prejudice, etc...in the federation is a great ideal, but not one that I can realistically imagine. The original star trek was made when we were still in the cold war era, and most of the villians there represented that kind of thinking to me. The romulans and the klingons sat on their nukes on their side of the nuetral zones, and we sat on ours - so to speak. Yes - there was the occasional confrontation, but still - each side was well aware of what the other one could do, and would only push so far. Also - in the ST world, most everything was neatly wrapped up and solved in the one hour time slot each week which led to a lot of varied stories and topics, but - IMO - lacked story-line depth. Later incarnations of the series did attempt to address that, but certainly not on the level of a series-long story arc. Star Wars addressed some of these issues by not being invloved with Earth in any way. They had much more creative freedom for that very reason in my opinion. Because of the fact that there is no planet earth there, there is no specific time or frame of reference for comparison, so you can just judge the SW universe by the merits of its story, and that is - again in my opinion - an advantage. B5 - on the other hand, does include earth, and in fact earth plays a very central role. Even though it is set in the future, it is nice to see that JMS brought along the same everyday things that we deal with now in our own time, and by doing so - makes the experience seem more real. For example - there are no transporters on our ships. We use shuttles in and out of the station and from ship to ship - seems realistic. 'Down below' on the station shows that hunger, poverty, etc...are still things that we have not conquered. Money - credits - is still an issue, etc...I could go on and on, but you get my point.

The fact that B5 is a series long story, and has several sub-plots and mini-stories along the way - I would think these folks would appreciate the creativity and effort it had to take to pull that off, yet all I get is grief from them about watching it over and over. I really wish they could see what I see in B5. As many times as I have seen it, as many times as I have re-read the books, I am always amazed that each and every time - I see something I missed all the times before, and it is like discovering it all over again.

The one thing I've noticed about trash talking Star Trek fans is that most of them have never seen Babylon 5 in the correct order from beginning to end. Without that you cannot appreciate the greatness of Babylon 5. I also think like most fans here it's that the attention to detail that JMS brought to the show that keeps us coming back for more.

The first time I watched the show I missed so much but just watching it every now and again, you can see all the tiny threads just coming together. I love all the tiny hints and clues that seemed so insignificant but add so much depth.

At the end of the day Babylon 5 is a fantastic 100 hour movie, superbly told and took to a whole new level by a wonderful cast. Lots of things we take for granted today in sci-fi shows made during Babylon 5 has run and afterwards, clearly influenced by the show. It was truly ground-breaking in so many ways but none more than the story arc. So ambitious, giving the show a truly epic feel. The likelihood of all the stars aligning to successfully tell another 4/5 year saga is probably incalculable.

Simply put other fans just haven't experienced the likes of Babylon 5 so just can't compare or understand.

"It was the end of the Earth year 2261 and it was the dawn of a new age for all of us. It was the end of one chapter and the beginning of another. The next 20 years would see great changes, great joy and great sorrow. The telepath war. The Drakh war. The New Alliance would waver and crack, but in the end it will hold, because what is built endures, and what is loved endures. And Babylon 5.... Babylon 5 endures."

[Jonas]

I find that today, a lot of people are afraid of anything that engages with reality and the future on a serious level. B5's essentially scientific/materialistic view of the future, its depiction of alien cultures as more than just metaphor for ourselves - these are not popular ideas in a time where most of the depictions of the future our culture produces are of various apocalypses.... and the Space Shuttle program just died without a replacement. Instead we get BSG's faith-based alien-free future-past luddite sci-fi.

(The same would happen to Star Trek, though, if it wasn't already established.)

[Marsden]

I have to say, the reverse is true for me, after watching B5 I realised how boring and insignificant DS9 was and I gave up on it. Really, there is no comparison. Also, some of my friends at the time that were still watching said they somewhat tried to, shall I say, emulate B5 with their whole "Dominion War" story line. Well, I missed it as I said and I kind of wish I didn't but when you've had the best it's hard to go back to meh.


I think it boils down to commitment, in a way. I think we agree B5 is a work in it's entirety and you should watch it all, they others you mentioned it's entirely possible to pick and choose and really not lose anything. I absolutely love the first Star Wars movie but the next two weren't that great for me, then I did like the prequels but I don't feel like they are one big story that you should watch all six even though I think they are supposed to be, the connections seem too streched, especiall with end of 3 begining of 4. Star Trek was by nature intentionally made so it could be shown in any order so the tv stations didn't have to keep track of the episodes and they didn't even attempt to show them in production order. Plus, I'm confident you can skip the "Space Hippies" episode and not lose out on the Star Trek experience. The one they stole Spock's Brain was another bit of a ..., well I enjoyed both of those episodes but they are on my bottom 10 list, but the point being they were never metioned again and you needn't know they existed if you didn't want to. I'd like to pretend Byron didn't exist but even then he was part of a great big story that all tied together, there really isn't much you can just "leave off" with B5, thus requiring the commitment to watching it and getting the maximum enjoyment out of it.

[moreorless]

The one thing I've noticed about trash talking Star Trek fans is that most of them have never seen Babylon 5 in the correct order from beginning to end. Without that you cannot appreciate the greatness of Babylon 5. I also think like most fans here it's that the attention to detail that JMS brought to the show that keeps us coming back for more.

The first time I watched the show I missed so much but just watching it every now and again, you can see all the tiny threads just coming together. I love all the tiny hints and clues that seemed so insignificant but add so much depth.

At the end of the day Babylon 5 is a fantastic 100 hour movie, superbly told and took to a whole new level by a wonderful cast. Lots of things we take for granted today in sci-fi shows made during Babylon 5 has run and afterwards, clearly influenced by the show. It was truly ground-breaking in so many ways but none more than the story arc. So ambitious, giving the show a truly epic feel. The likelihood of all the stars aligning to successfully tell another 4/5 year saga is probably incalculable.

Yeah I'd agree with that, the fact that B5's highpoints were most linked to its overarching plot means that you need to watch the whole thing to get the full effect.

Even though DS9 had a similar kind of over arching plot the very best episodes like Duet and The Vistor tended to be more stand alone affairs that the casual view could understand.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

"It was the end of the Earth year 2261 and it was the dawn of a new age for all of us. It was the end of one chapter and the beginning of another. The next 20 years would see great changes, great joy and great sorrow. The telepath war. The Drakh war. The New Alliance would waver and crack, but in the end it will hold, because what is built endures, and what is loved endures. And Babylon 5.... Babylon 5 endures."

Now this just makes me want to cry. For me it is the depth of emotion which I feel connected to B5. The only other show I have ever felt like that about was JAG: a completely different kind of show altogether.

Also that I connected individually to the characters in such a strong way.
B5 is not just a television show for me it is an experience.

I agree with what has been said about how realastic it feels. It is the only sci fi universe I could see myself living in.

[Truth66]

I've found myself in the same possition on several ocaisions over the years defending Babylon 5. One of the biggest reasons why I was hooked on Babylon 5 was that I first read an article about this new series coming called Babylon 5 in a Starlog Magazine. Then when I finally saw Midnight on the Firing Line I was hooked because it was totally new from what I was used to seeing on television (namely years of Trek).
Strangely this battle between Babylon 5 & Star Trek was played out in a Sci Fi Universe Article. I personally can't find my copy right now but here's a link to it from e-bay:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Sci-Fi-Universe-Magazine-24-May-97-Trek-vs-Babylon-5-/230632873007?pt=Magazines&hash=item35b2ca5c2f

If I remember correctly one of the biggest points outlined in this article was that Star Trek usually always had the proverbial reset switch at the end of each episode, whereas Babylon 5 had the continuous story.

Another Science Fiction article I remember around the same period had a cover article about Deep Space Nine called the Dazed and the Confused (or something to that effect). Basicly the article mentioned how lost Deep Space Nine was as a series.

What I find interesting is that Deep Space Nine didn't seem to pick up in the ratings until they themselves decided to develop a continous story line when they did the last few seasons focusing on the Dominion war.

To this day when ever someone challenges me on Baylon 5 I usually say the same thing. "I challenge you to watch the first couple of seasons & then I'm possitive that you'll be hooked." When ever someone is brave enough to either put up or shut up and take me up on my challenge, they usually do get hooked on Babylon 5.

[DGTWoodward]

The problem with NEXT GEN, to me as a 'classic TREK' fan, was that in his third (THIRD!!) attempt at the show Mr. Roddenberry evolved humanity past the character flaws that make us what we are.

That makes all of the conflict and drama stem almost solely from the non-humans on the show...or the malfunctioning technology. And...I am alone in getting utterly fed up with 'holodeck' episodes?

I suppose the two things that finally did it for me were the miraculous solutions from out of the technology, and the unending, unrelenting, continuous ass-gravy that made up the dialogue accompanying those segments...." I need a twin-eyed frog-I-sprite to over compensate for this triple-overhead underhand possiblychonter! And I need it NOW!!!"

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

JMS did not go down this self indulgent road. His characters, instead of being the less than 2-D cyphers of NEXT GEN, are real people. Just like you and me,

They have fallen out with their fathers and not talked for years, they are the alcoholics and drug users amongst us (no judgement intended), they are the war mongers and the peace makers, the singers and the poets, the angry and the calm, the trust worthy and the snakes, the back-stabbers and the BS-ers.

I can look into the future and very easily see JMS' future for humanity because we are still the same race.

As much as I admire Gene Roddenberry and what he tried to do with NEXT GEN, I just cannot see it as a viable point in humanity's path.

[Truth66]

The problem with NEXT GEN, to me as a 'classic TREK' fan, was that in his third (THIRD!!) attempt at the show Mr. Roddenberry evolved humanity past the character flaws that make us what we are.

That makes all of the conflict and drama stem almost solely from the non-humans on the show...or the malfunctioning technology. And...I am alone in getting utterly fed up with 'holodeck' episodes?

I suppose the two things that finally did it for me were the miraculous solutions from out of the technology, and the unending, unrelenting, continuous ass-gravy that made up the dialogue accompanying those segments...." I need a twin-eyed frog-I-sprite to over compensate for this triple-overhead underhand possiblychonter! And I need it NOW!!!"

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

JMS did not go down this self indulgent road. His characters, instead of being the less than 2-D cyphers of NEXT GEN, are real people. Just like you and me,

They have fallen out with their fathers and not talked for years, they are the alcoholics and drug users amongst us (no judgement intended), they are the war mongers and the peace makers, the singers and the poets, the angry and the calm, the trust worthy and the snakes, the back-stabbers and the BS-ers.

I can look into the future and very easily see JMS' future for humanity because we are still the same race.

As much as I admire Gene Roddenberry and what he tried to do with NEXT GEN, I just cannot see it as a viable point in humanity's path.

Exellent Points. In fact I do remember JMS stating those points in one of the special features of the B5 DVD's. I can't remember which one off the top of my head because a buddy of mine is currently borrowing my discs (yes I trust him to borrow my treasured B5 dvd's). JMS mentioned something to the effect that humanity hasn't solved all of our problems in the last x number of years and we're not going to solve all of them in the next x number of years. We will take with us to the stars all of our various flaws.
JMS demonstrated that very well through out B5 with almost every character going through some kind of personal hell as well as having to deal with the ongoing situations in and outside of the station.

[Marsden]

... I agree with what has been said about how realastic it feels. It is the only sci fi universe I could see myself living in.

It's funny, but I feel the opposite, it's so realistic I wouldn't want to live there, I'd need to work to eat. On other shows food just flies out of the wall and if you get hurt you can either get put back together by the transporter or have the hologram fix it.

One of the little points I like about B5 is the character of Kat, she is a bartender. Lives in space, yes, but she has a very mundane job. I mean really, you need to work and worry about your health, no salt shakers of healing on B5, they probably pay lots of taxes, too. It's incredibly realistic.

[WorkerCaste]

And...I am alone in getting utterly fed up with 'holodeck' episodes?

I can not believe that if there were a piece of recreational equipment on a ship, and if it put the ship in danger about once every two months, that said equipment would not be gone very quickly. Doens't make sense.