Two Questions about the Shadows

[Jonas]

The way he delivers the lines about someone being "never quite whole again" and "so will you" seems to drop the mask a bit for me though about how in control of the situation he really is. I agree he and Morden do seem to have some degree of free will but that certainly gave me the impression that they don't have as much as they think they do.

Having seen the scene again recently, I totally agree with that. A sense of pain and terror suddenly rise to the surface, and I think it's pretty clear that he's also talking about himself.

Morden actually has kind of a similar scene - on Centauri Prime at the beginning of the fourth season, when's all burned and slightly insane, talking about how he has to do what they tell him even though he is in pain. He talks about the Shadows in a way that seems almost resentful.

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I think Morden likes his job and refers to liking it on the show a few times. He doesn't seem willing slave more like true believer. He is a guy who was probably a nobody before and the Shadows gave him the chance to be a powerful figure, so he took it. To some extent Justin is too. You get the sense from him that he enjoys these conversations that he has with Sheridan. He even tells John the truth about being a Nexus and that the Vorlons are just as bad as the Shadows. I think he is nervous for what Macbeth pointed out which is that the Shadows give you some free will, but if you screw up you will be in terrible trouble. Plus, Sheridan's speech about Anna really seem to shake him and I think he realized that Sheridan had the upper hand in some way. He is an older guy that now has a war hero in his prime figuring out he helped hollow out the hero's wife. Shadow or no Shadow coming out of the door, that realization will cause anyone to shanke.

Jeanne Cavelos "The Shadow Within" the prequel to the Technomage trilogy tells the story of exactly what did happen to both Anna and Morden and how the Shadows got them. It is an excellent read. I hated Anna until I I read this book, and she was turned into a real person for me, and I felt really sorry for Morden even if the choice was his to make. And even though I already knew the ending I still found myself rooting for both of them to be okay in the end. I actully think they would have made a cute couple *giggles* Delenn belongs with Sheridan!!!!

[lotjx]

I think Morden likes his job and refers to liking it on the show a few times. He doesn't seem willing slave more like true believer. He is a guy who was probably a nobody before and the Shadows gave him the chance to be a powerful figure, so he took it. To some extent Justin is too. You get the sense from him that he enjoys these conversations that he has with Sheridan. He even tells John the truth about being a Nexus and that the Vorlons are just as bad as the Shadows. I think he is nervous for what Macbeth pointed out which is that the Shadows give you some free will, but if you screw up you will be in terrible trouble. Plus, Sheridan's speech about Anna really seem to shake him and I think he realized that Sheridan had the upper hand in some way. He is an older guy that now has a war hero in his prime figuring out he helped hollow out the hero's wife. Shadow or no Shadow coming out of the door, that realization will cause anyone to shanke.

[moreorless]

My view is that the shadows allow their local representatives to take the lead and "empower" them with decision making authority. They are also closely supervised. I imagine the consequences of failure are unpleasant. I took Justins sudden stuttering etc as a certain amount of desperation on his part after realizing that he had played the Sheridan B5 thing badly and that he was in for a hard time from "head office".

Its open to interpration I agree but either way I think the end result is similar, Justin first gives the impression of being on somewhat equal terms with the Shadows but is latter revealed as clearly "serving" them.

You could actually look at Mordens situation another way aswell, we know that he's "never alone" but are those Shadows just helping him or are they actually controling him directly or perhaps making sure he doesnt escape?

[Macbeth]

My view is that the shadows allow their local representatives to take the lead and "empower" them with decision making authority. They are also closely supervised. I imagine the consequences of failure are unpleasant. I took Justins sudden stuttering etc as a certain amount of desperation on his part after realizing that he had played the Sheridan B5 thing badly and that he was in for a hard time from "head office".

[moreorless]

Justin was referring to Anna being put into the Shadow Ship as being whole again. The "So will you" line is more about making Sheridan, the same drone that Anna is. After Sheridan's speech about Anna, Justin realized there was no way they were going to convince him to join the Shadows, so they were going to kill him or throw him into a Shadow Ship. To me, their plan for Sheridan was convince him of his own free will or kill him and destroy B5 in one big move. Yet, the Shadows just didn't realize Sheridan was a hundrend times smarter and sneakier then they were.

Sheridan had a ton of aces up his sleeve and Z'Ha'Dum is my favorite episode, because it shows Sheridan as one of the most capable leaders of all time if nothing else the greatest poker player of all time. He has the ace of the brain test that the Shadows were not aware that he had. He has the ace of the Narn bombs as well as a ringer which is Garibaldi who is willing to go along with his plan. He bluffs his anger at Delenn to make Anna think he is on her side. He bluffs Anna into thinking he is going to Z'Ha'Dum for a nice chat with the Shadows. He has the ace up sleeve or more near his foot with the second gun. He plays his final hand perfectly by doing something the Shadows never figured he would do which is sacrifice himself as well as his only means of escape at the same time. Yet, even then unknown to him, Kosh is the last ace in the deck he gets on the river without even knowing it. Its probably the last river card, too. In a game of poker against the biggest house of them all ie the Shadows, Sheridan pulls a four of kind Aces thanks to skill, a ringer and luck. And like all good poker players before him barely gets out of there alive sort of. He is the man.

Listen to the way Justins lines are delivered though, stuttering and pained quite unlike the previously confident and level speach he'd given. To me that strongly suggests that he's not the indepenant individual we first beleieved, either he's been put into a ship himself or he's under some other influence from the shadows(direct or threat).

For me thats a great representation of the larger story, both the Vorlons and Shadows arguements seem well reasoned but it becomes clear that there not capable of level headed reasoning of the situation anymore.

[lotjx]

Justin was referring to Anna being put into the Shadow Ship as being whole again. The "So will you" line is more about making Sheridan, the same drone that Anna is. After Sheridan's speech about Anna, Justin realized there was no way they were going to convince him to join the Shadows, so they were going to kill him or throw him into a Shadow Ship. To me, their plan for Sheridan was convince him of his own free will or kill him and destroy B5 in one big move. Yet, the Shadows just didn't realize Sheridan was a hundrend times smarter and sneakier then they were.

Sheridan had a ton of aces up his sleeve and Z'Ha'Dum is my favorite episode, because it shows Sheridan as one of the most capable leaders of all time if nothing else the greatest poker player of all time. He has the ace of the brain test that the Shadows were not aware that he had. He has the ace of the Narn bombs as well as a ringer which is Garibaldi who is willing to go along with his plan. He bluffs his anger at Delenn to make Anna think he is on her side. He bluffs Anna into thinking he is going to Z'Ha'Dum for a nice chat with the Shadows. He has the ace up sleeve or more near his foot with the second gun. He plays his final hand perfectly by doing something the Shadows never figured he would do which is sacrifice himself as well as his only means of escape at the same time. Yet, even then unknown to him, Kosh is the last ace in the deck he gets on the river without even knowing it. Its probably the last river card, too. In a game of poker against the biggest house of them all ie the Shadows, Sheridan pulls a four of kind Aces thanks to skill, a ringer and luck. And like all good poker players before him barely gets out of there alive sort of. He is the man.

[moreorless]

I wouldn't say all of them are slaves. Delenn was told that the crew of the Icarus would be given the choice to join or die. In reality, it seems the choice was join willingly or be forced to join. Morden and Justin seem more then just slaves. Morden in particular seems in control in a lot of situations and order the Shadows. Justin's speech seems to very genuine and was honest. We don't know what the end game was for the humans in the Shadows' eyes. It seemed like they were shepherding them into a role that was similar to the Minbari were with the Vorlons.

The way he delivers the lines about someone being "never quite whole again" and "so will you" seems to drop the mask a bit for me though about how in control of the situation he really is. I agree he and Morden do seem to have some degree of free will but that certainly gave me the impression that they don't have as much as they think they do.

I thought that was really key to the story, with Morden we get the impression that his faluts were pre existing but with Justin we see a man who looks to be honiest and moral on the surface but then reveals himself to be a slave to extremist dogma.

[lotjx]

I wouldn't say all of them are slaves. Delenn was told that the crew of the Icarus would be given the choice to join or die. In reality, it seems the choice was join willingly or be forced to join. Morden and Justin seem more then just slaves. Morden in particular seems in control in a lot of situations and order the Shadows. Justin's speech seems to very genuine and was honest. We don't know what the end game was for the humans in the Shadows' eyes. It seemed like they were shepherding them into a role that was similar to the Minbari were with the Vorlons.

[moreorless]

I think the Sebastian scene at the end of season 3 really tells you all about the relationship between the Shadows and there human "helpers". For most of it he seems to create the impression that he's on an equal footing with the shadows or perhaps even directing them but the way he reveals that Anna was merged with the shadow ship pretty much reveals him to be a slave IMHO.

[DGTWoodward]

Yes I agree. He was their 'human contact on the ground' so they would definately deferred to his expertise/experience in that situation.

[Marsden]

Then why did the Shadows ask Morden if they should kill Londo (did anyone else hear Vir's voice just then "Kill Londo!") and he said no they could still use him? I meant brains of the 3 of them, not the Shadow leadership or command.

[Doom Shepherd]

I think it comes down to the Vorlons being fairly incorporeal, and the shadows seeming to be more solidly physical.

It's a lot harder to shoot a bolt of lightning than it is to shoot an elephant.

[KoshN]

Those heavy guns the Centauri guards used didn't look weak to me,

Those were rapid-fire PPG rifles; and I doubt they would have been effective on a Vorlon in or out of its encounter suit.

plus the Shadows were obviously not expecting it so couldn't defend themselves in time goes a long way toward explaining that. Morden was absolutely shocked, that never happened to him before and I don't think the Shadows would have known any better, either, seeing as he appeared to be more of the brains of the operation then they.

Morden, the brains? ROFL! Morden was a puppet, and the Shadows' front man, their human representative. Morden may have THOUGHT he was important to them, but he wasn't.

Maybe the insect thing extends not only to their shape and there are "drone" Shadows and "Queens" or higher up Shadows that are as tough as a Vorlon, sometimes the Shadows look bigger than other times, like the one they show in the flashback that they used for the season opener seems to be a bigger one.
It can also only be scale and perspective.

I didn't think they were easy to kill in the first place, only that Sheridan is a tough bastard and Londo is a sneaky bastard.

All the Shadows we've seem, seem to be the same, rank, size, power, etc. Vorlons seem to have a hierarchy, with Kosh Naranek being higher up than Ulkesh Naranek. Ulkesh was sort of an impudent upstart compared to Kosh.

[Marsden]

Those heavy guns the Centauri guards used didn't look weak to me, plus the Shadows were obviously not expecting it so couldn't defend themselves in time goes a long way toward explaining that. Morden was absolutely shocked, that never happened to him before and I don't think the Shadows would have known any better, either, seeing as he appeared to be more of the brains of the operation then they.

Maybe the insect thing extends not only to their shape and there are "drone" Shadows and "Queens" or higher up Shadows that are as tough as a Vorlon, sometimes the Shadows look bigger than other times, like the one they show in the flashback that they used for the season opener seems to be a bigger one.
It can also only be scale and perspective.

I didn't think they were easy to kill in the first place, only that Sheridan is a tough bastard and Londo is a sneaky bastard.