Two Questions about the Shadows

[The Emperor]

1) I've heard that the forms which we see on the show aren't their actual true physical forms, but rather encounter suits, and that the real Shadows are energy beings much like the Vorlons inside those suits. Is that true?

2) Anyone know why the Shadows are so weak? When they had to take down False Kosh/Ulkesh it took the concentrated firepower of a security team, the leftover remains of the original Kosh, as well as running God knows how much electric current through his encounter suit to take him out. But the Shadows? Apparently Sheridan killed a couple with his PPG on Z'ha'dum while a random Centauri palace guard with a really big gun killed a Shadow guarding Morden. So what's the deal, there? Why're Vorlons so hard to kill while the Shadows are relatively easy to kill in comparison?

[Commander Raiden]

Interesting..

Maybe J.M.S himself could clarify this once and for all..

[Jan]

1) I've heard that the forms which we see on the show aren't their actual true physical forms, but rather encounter suits, and that the real Shadows are energy beings much like the Vorlons inside those suits. Is that true?

I wouldn't be surprised. We saw Kosh in his encounter suit next to a Shadow just before they left with Lorien.

2) Anyone know why the Shadows are so weak? When they had to take down False Kosh/Ulkesh it took the concentrated firepower of a security team, the leftover remains of the original Kosh, as well as running God knows how much electric current through his encounter suit to take him out. But the Shadows? Apparently Sheridan killed a couple with his PPG on Z'ha'dum while a random Centauri palace guard with a really big gun killed a Shadow guarding Morden. So what's the deal, there? Why're Vorlons so hard to kill while the Shadows are relatively easy to kill in comparison?

Well, we know that Sheridan wounded one or more. He didn't necessarily have to kill them in order to escape. But I guess my question is, why shouldn't they be weak? Humans are much weaker than Minbari. Narns are much stronger than Centauri but weaker (at least I think so) than Drazi. Different races evolved differently.

Jan

[lotjx]

I am thinking what we see with the Shadows is what they are. The Vorlons used that image to make everyone of afraid of them and respond more favorably to the Vorlons. I have always figured the Shadows were the lesser of the two races between them and the Vorlons. So, it would be harder for a Shadow to kill a Vorlon. The Shadows seemed to be more fragile then the Vorlons thus easier to kill.

I think JMS made a minor mistake by making Ulkesh, Darth Kosh, a pain in the butt to kill. To me, it was done to show how tough the Vorlons were, but it hit a ridiculous level when the station's energy only really cracked the encounter suit. I understand they are almost God like, yet when the battle for Corina Six happens, you see White Stars and Starfurries taking on Vorlon ships and doing damage. I know filming for the Ulkesh fight scene was a giant pain, so in hindsight I think JMS may want that back.

[KoshN]

1) I've heard that the forms which we see on the show aren't their actual true physical forms, but rather encounter suits, and that the real Shadows are energy beings much like the Vorlons inside those suits. Is that true?

2) Anyone know why the Shadows are so weak? When they had to take down False Kosh/Ulkesh it took the concentrated firepower of a security team, the leftover remains of the original Kosh, as well as running God knows how much electric current through his encounter suit to take him out. But the Shadows? Apparently Sheridan killed a couple with his PPG on Z'ha'dum while a random Centauri palace guard with a really big gun killed a Shadow guarding Morden. So what's the deal, there? Why're Vorlons so hard to kill while the Shadows are relatively easy to kill in comparison?

The Shadows rely on stealth. Since most don't know where to shoot, armor isn't usually needed. The Vorlons usually* don't use stealth, and rely more on the armor of the encounter suit, but they're tough even outside of their encounter suits.


*The exception would be when a Vorlon is traveling inside another being (e.g. Lyta).

[Jonas]

I think JMS made a minor mistake by making Ulkesh, Darth Kosh, a pain in the butt to kill. To me, it was done to show how tough the Vorlons were, but it hit a ridiculous level when the station's energy only really cracked the encounter suit. I understand they are almost God like, yet when the battle for Corina Six happens, you see White Stars and Starfurries taking on Vorlon ships and doing damage. I know filming for the Ulkesh fight scene was a giant pain, so in hindsight I think JMS may want that back.

Well, the power of a ship weapon is likely to be rather a lot larger than that of any weapon that can be used on a station.

(Starfurries? That would be the teddy bear from "There All the Honor Lies" - right? )

[moreorless]

The Shadows rely on stealth. Since most don't know where to shoot, armor isn't usually needed. The Vorlons usually* don't use stealth, and rely more on the armor of the encounter suit, but they're tough even outside of their encounter suits.

You could also take the view that both races views may have been shaped by there strenghts and weaknesses. The Vorlons being being more powerful must have bene used to dominating others from early in there history. The Shadows being less powerful would be more used to working though less direct means to achieve there aims.

[Marsden]

Those heavy guns the Centauri guards used didn't look weak to me, plus the Shadows were obviously not expecting it so couldn't defend themselves in time goes a long way toward explaining that. Morden was absolutely shocked, that never happened to him before and I don't think the Shadows would have known any better, either, seeing as he appeared to be more of the brains of the operation then they.

Maybe the insect thing extends not only to their shape and there are "drone" Shadows and "Queens" or higher up Shadows that are as tough as a Vorlon, sometimes the Shadows look bigger than other times, like the one they show in the flashback that they used for the season opener seems to be a bigger one.
It can also only be scale and perspective.

I didn't think they were easy to kill in the first place, only that Sheridan is a tough bastard and Londo is a sneaky bastard.

[KoshN]

Those heavy guns the Centauri guards used didn't look weak to me,

Those were rapid-fire PPG rifles; and I doubt they would have been effective on a Vorlon in or out of its encounter suit.

plus the Shadows were obviously not expecting it so couldn't defend themselves in time goes a long way toward explaining that. Morden was absolutely shocked, that never happened to him before and I don't think the Shadows would have known any better, either, seeing as he appeared to be more of the brains of the operation then they.

Morden, the brains? ROFL! Morden was a puppet, and the Shadows' front man, their human representative. Morden may have THOUGHT he was important to them, but he wasn't.

Maybe the insect thing extends not only to their shape and there are "drone" Shadows and "Queens" or higher up Shadows that are as tough as a Vorlon, sometimes the Shadows look bigger than other times, like the one they show in the flashback that they used for the season opener seems to be a bigger one.
It can also only be scale and perspective.

I didn't think they were easy to kill in the first place, only that Sheridan is a tough bastard and Londo is a sneaky bastard.

All the Shadows we've seem, seem to be the same, rank, size, power, etc. Vorlons seem to have a hierarchy, with Kosh Naranek being higher up than Ulkesh Naranek. Ulkesh was sort of an impudent upstart compared to Kosh.

[Doom Shepherd]

I think it comes down to the Vorlons being fairly incorporeal, and the shadows seeming to be more solidly physical.

It's a lot harder to shoot a bolt of lightning than it is to shoot an elephant.

[Marsden]

Then why did the Shadows ask Morden if they should kill Londo (did anyone else hear Vir's voice just then "Kill Londo!") and he said no they could still use him? I meant brains of the 3 of them, not the Shadow leadership or command.

[DGTWoodward]

Yes I agree. He was their 'human contact on the ground' so they would definately deferred to his expertise/experience in that situation.

[moreorless]

I think the Sebastian scene at the end of season 3 really tells you all about the relationship between the Shadows and there human "helpers". For most of it he seems to create the impression that he's on an equal footing with the shadows or perhaps even directing them but the way he reveals that Anna was merged with the shadow ship pretty much reveals him to be a slave IMHO.

[lotjx]

I wouldn't say all of them are slaves. Delenn was told that the crew of the Icarus would be given the choice to join or die. In reality, it seems the choice was join willingly or be forced to join. Morden and Justin seem more then just slaves. Morden in particular seems in control in a lot of situations and order the Shadows. Justin's speech seems to very genuine and was honest. We don't know what the end game was for the humans in the Shadows' eyes. It seemed like they were shepherding them into a role that was similar to the Minbari were with the Vorlons.

[moreorless]

I wouldn't say all of them are slaves. Delenn was told that the crew of the Icarus would be given the choice to join or die. In reality, it seems the choice was join willingly or be forced to join. Morden and Justin seem more then just slaves. Morden in particular seems in control in a lot of situations and order the Shadows. Justin's speech seems to very genuine and was honest. We don't know what the end game was for the humans in the Shadows' eyes. It seemed like they were shepherding them into a role that was similar to the Minbari were with the Vorlons.

The way he delivers the lines about someone being "never quite whole again" and "so will you" seems to drop the mask a bit for me though about how in control of the situation he really is. I agree he and Morden do seem to have some degree of free will but that certainly gave me the impression that they don't have as much as they think they do.

I thought that was really key to the story, with Morden we get the impression that his faluts were pre existing but with Justin we see a man who looks to be honiest and moral on the surface but then reveals himself to be a slave to extremist dogma.