3 questions that started to bother me the last time around wathing B5

[Dipper]

1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?

2. Why did exactly Kosh want the reflections of Talia in Deathwalker? I think Garibaldi mentions something about them later on, but still I'm in the dark about the whole thing.

3. When Morden comes in to Delenn's quarters there's a mark on Delenn's forhead ... what is it? The episode is Signs and Portents.


-Dip

[B5_Obsessed]

Re: 3 questions that started to bother me the last time around wathing B5

Originally posted by Dipper
1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?

2. Why did exactly Kosh want the reflections of Talia in Deathwalker? I think Garibaldi mentions something about them later on, but still I'm in the dark about the whole thing.

3. When Morden comes in to Delenn's quarters there's a mark on Delenn's forhead ... what is it? The episode is Signs and Portents.


-Dip

1. An unnamed member of the Grey Council. (One wonders how he got on B5 without attracting attention)

2. Those "reflections" may have been used to restore Talia's personality. As Kosh hinted, a little insurance "For the future". I don't know if that was JMS's intent in "Deathwalker" (it seemed more like something Kosh would use against Talia) but that seemed to be the indication in "Divided Loyalties" when Garibaldi brings it up. This seemed to be a trap door under the trap door for Talia. I guess JMS figured just in case Pat Tallman walked off the set he could somehow grudgingly hold the door open for Andrea Thompson if he had to.

3. Basically an implanted Shadow alarm, that sensed their presence. It wasn't Morden that set it off, but the Shadows who snuck into the room with him. Obviously, having a light-up triangle on your forehead seems a little indiscreet, so JMS may not have used it again. It also looked like the mystery Minbari's triangle which did not require the presence of Shadows to be visible. Some ideas work, some don't

[Atanvarno]

Re: 3 questions that started to bother me the last time around wathing B5

Originally posted by Dipper
1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?

Not sure, possibly Grey Counsel.

2. Why did exactly Kosh want the reflections of Talia in Deathwalker? I think Garibaldi mentions something about them later on, but still I'm in the dark about the whole thing.

I always assumed that was part of the abandoned Talia arc, when she went Kosh's reflections became irrelevant. As to what would have happened: life's full of mysteries, consider this one of them.

3. When Morden comes in to Delenn's quarters there's a mark on Delenn's forhead ... what is it? The episode is Signs and Portents.

I think its some kind of 'Shadow detector' that the member of the Grey Counsel have, not sure what I'm basing that on, however, possibly a JMS comment somewhere?

Edit: Ignore me, B5_Obsessed got there first

[B5_Obsessed]

At least we're consistent.

[Joseph DeMartino]

1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?

A member of the Grey Council. The "mark" is a triangle, probably a symbolic representation of a triluminary, possibly a device of some sort, and almost certainly a recognition signal between members of the Council. The Minbari version of a gang tattoo. There would have been no problem getting him aboard B5. IIRC the names and faces of members of the Council are not even known to most Minbari, and they certainly wouldn't be recognized as such by any aliens. (Nor do I think they list "Grey Council" under "occupation" on their passports. Certainly Delenn doesn't. ) As far as anyone on B5 was concerned he would have been just another Minbari. Similarly when Rathenn (I think that's the name) visits the station in "Points of Departure" he is travelling undercover. Sheridan correctly deduces that he's Grey Council, but nobody ever says so out loud.

2. Why did exactly Kosh want the reflections of Talia in Deathwalker? I think Garibaldi mentions something about them later on, but still I'm in the dark about the whole thing.

Well, that's kind of unavoidable since whatever plot thread this was supposed to pay off in was lost when Andrea Thompson left the series. (Ditto Talia's growing closeness to Susan, and Susan's latent telepathy, two more things intended to pay off in the fifth season that never happened because both actresses were gone by then.) Kosh would have wanted to control and influence Talia. Don't forget, he doesn't have the bond with her that he had with Lyta as a result of her mind scan, but he would still have had plans for the station's resident teep. Also he may have had some inkling of Ironheart's gift and wanted to some leverage over her - or at least a baseline reading on her TK and TP abilities to measure her future growth against. In story terms I also think the recording would have been used to restore Talia 1.0 after the sleeper personality was triggered assuming that Andrea had stayed with the show.

3. When Morden comes in to Delenn's quarters there's a mark on Delenn's forhead ... what is it? The episode is Signs and Portents.

Not, I think, a Shadow detector per se. It is exactly the same triangle symbol/device/tatoo that the unnamed Grey Council member mentioned in question 1 displayed when he was talking to Delenn - and there were certainly no Shadows about then. Making the symbol visible appears to be a matter of choice. The GC member displayed it deliberately. Delenn is clearly surprised when she feels it appear spontaneously during her interview with Morden. She seems to deduce that it sudden, uncontrolled appearance (together with her vision of Morden's face obscured by shadow) indicates that the Shadows are near-by, but not know it for a fact or detect his "associates" (Whereas Kosh later is actually speaking to the associates and ignoring Morden altogether.)

Regards,

Joe

[Atanvarno]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
Not, I think, a Shadow detector per se. It is exactly the same triangle symbol/device/tatoo that the unnamed Grey Council member mentioned in question 1 displayed when he was talking to Delenn - and there were certainly no Shadows about then. Making the symbol visible appears to be a matter of choice. The GC member displayed it deliberately. Delenn is clearly surprised when she feels it appear spontaneously during her interview with Morden. She seems to deduce that it sudden, uncontrolled appearance (together with her vision of Morden's face obscured by shadow) indicates that the Shadows are near-by, but not know it for a fact or detect his "associates" (Whereas Kosh later is actually speaking to the associates and ignoring Morden altogether.)

Thanks for clearing that up for me

I was never fond of that trait of the Grey Counsel, and I was quite glad it was never seen later on.

[Dipper]

Thank you very much for the answers. As I'm still rerererererererererererewathing the first season, I came up with yet another question:

When Kosh confronts Morden in S&P his encounter suit is damaged. What happens there ? Does Kosh splash out some Shadows or do they just push each other around?



-Dip

[Radhil]

Probably the latter. As they say in another 'verse, just an honest brawl between folk.

[Dr Maturin]

You guys got it all wrong.

<<1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?>>

Bob.

<<2. Why did exactly Kosh want the reflections of Talia in Deathwalker? I think Garibaldi mentions something about them later on, but still I'm in the dark about the whole thing.>>

It is a sort of Minbari pornography. Instead of pictures, they experience "reflections" of a "centerfold." Lyta was the big starlet on Vorlon homeworld.

<<3. When Morden comes in to Delenn's quarters there's a mark on Delenn's forhead ... what is it? The episode is Signs and Portents.>>

A gay rights organization symbol. Delenn is a member.

[Capt.Montoya]

I wonder if Morden's associates in that episode were the same ones that later had a much bigger fight with Kosh...
Unintended foreshadowing
It was good background info that the Shadows and Vorlons are similarly powerful.

Z'h'd D:
LOL...
Do you think Max Eilerson was into those Minbari/Vorlon materials?

[B5_Obsessed]

Not, I think, a Shadow detector per se. It is exactly the same triangle symbol/device/tatoo that the unnamed Grey Council member mentioned in question 1 displayed when he was talking to Delenn - and there were certainly no Shadows about then. Making the symbol visible appears to be a matter of choice. The GC member displayed it deliberately. Delenn is clearly surprised when she feels it appear spontaneously during her interview with Morden. She seems to deduce that it sudden, uncontrolled appearance (together with her vision of Morden's face obscured by shadow) indicates that the Shadows are near-by, but not know it for a fact or detect his "associates" (Whereas Kosh later is actually speaking to the associates and ignoring Morden altogether.)

Regards,

Joe [/B]

From JMSNews:

"In SaP, when Mr. morden visits Delenn, what was that glowing triangle?"

It's something the Grey Council have that allows them to sense
the arrival of the Shadows and their minions.


jms

That would be a Shadow detector, per se.

And this:

The triangle only manifests itself for specific reasons, at specific times, neither of which were appropriate to that moment.

jms

So it is not a matter of choice.

And this:

Basically, yeah, it senses the presence of the Shadows
themselves... hence her comment, "They're back," even though we see only Morden.

jms

Delenn knew for a fact that Morden's associates were with him.
Her look of shock would've been because after 1000 years of legends, it was really happening, to her right in her quarters. The fact that she was caught so off guard is her only justification for yelling at Morden to get out. It might have gotten her killed.

[B5_Obsessed]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
1. Who's the Minbari with the strange eyes and the forhead mark in Delenn's quarters in And The Sky Full of Stars?

A member of the Grey Council. The "mark" is a triangle, probably a symbolic representation of a triluminary, possibly a device of some sort, and almost certainly a recognition signal between members of the Council. The Minbari version of a gang tattoo. There would have been no problem getting him aboard B5. IIRC the names and faces of members of the Council are not even known to most Minbari, and they certainly wouldn't be recognized as such by any aliens. (Nor do I think they list "Grey Council" under "occupation" on their passports. Certainly Delenn doesn't. ) As far as anyone on B5 was concerned he would have been just another Minbari. Similarly when Rathenn (I think that's the name) visits the station in "Points of Departure" he is travelling undercover. Sheridan correctly deduces that he's Grey Council, but nobody ever says so out loud.

Regards,

Joe

I was making a joke by saying that a guy with a big blue triangle on his head is going to attract some attention. However, if the triangle on the forehead was meant to be a permanent mark of the Grey Council, then that detail may have gotten out, just like Sinclair learns from the computer that the word Satai denotes a memeber of the Grey Council. But you're right, the man would have to travel under a false identity. He'd also need a false pretense to get appointment with Delenn in Green Sector, since it is restricted to diplomatic personnel.

And I could be wrong, but I believe there were a whole lot less Minbari visiting the station during Season 1 than in later years. When Neroon visits the station, it is the first time they've seen a Sharlin cruiser since the end of the Earth-Minbari War.

Rathenn was Sinclair's secretary in "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" and seen in "War Without End, Part 1", I believe. The Grey Council member in "Points of Departure" is named Hedronn I believe, although he gets renamed Coplann (a joke on John Copeland) for "In the Beginning". Robin Sachs played the role and was the one speaking to Delenn at the Battle of the Line in both cases.

[Joseph DeMartino]

When Neroon visits the station, it is the first time they've seen a Sharlin cruiser since the end of the Earth-Minbari War.

Such Minbari as do visit are probably at pains not to arrive in war cruisers. Interesting quotes from JMS. Still doesn't explain why the triangle thingy is perfectly visible for no good reason when the guy is reminding Delenn of her orders to kill Sinclair, or why it almost never appears at any later point.

Regards,

Joe

[B5_Obsessed]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
Such Minbari as do visit are probably at pains not to arrive in war cruisers. Interesting quotes from JMS. Still doesn't explain why the triangle thingy is perfectly visible for no good reason when the guy is reminding Delenn of her orders to kill Sinclair, or why it almost never appears at any later point.

Regards,

Joe

I know. That's why I noted the discrepancy. JMS may have decided to drop it for some of the same reasons posted here; namely that a permanent mark on your forehead makes you very conspicuous, and that a sometimes visible Shadow-detector on your forehead only serves to alert your enemies that you're on to them. They should have implanted the things in the palms of their hands or something.

As an aside, I think JMS even mentioned somewhere that the triangle did not survive Delenn's transformation.

[Dr Maturin]

<<Z'h'd D:
LOL...
Do you think Max Eilerson was into those Minbari/Vorlon materials?>>

Probably, but you have to be Vorlon or telepathic to experience the "reflections." The Minbari thing...you know Max...most likely. He probably has a crystal of the hottest Minbari porno...All is Three.