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Strength of Shadows and Vorlons

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  • #1

    Strength of Shadows and Vorlons

    Are Vorlons more powerful than Shadows? When Garibaldi and his crew tried to shoot Kosh Ulkesh, they had a hard time denting his encounter suit. Looked like some kind of energy field. When Morden and the two Shadows tried to kill Kosh Naranek, they took a while.

    But then when Londo has the guard shoot the Shadows on either side of Morden, they die. Also, Sheridan evidently kills the Shadow he spins on in Z'ha'dum.

    So why are the Shadows easier to kill than Vorlons? From reading the techno-mage trilogy, we know that the Shadow carapaces are also encounter suits of sorts.
    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.
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  • #2
    Interesting...

    I guess the powers of good and evil play here. The vorlons when actually seen are beings of light regardless of the shape they assume in the minds of the observers. The Shadows are beings of darkness... intense darkness as witnessed by Delenn when she was looking at Morden, Talia when she looked at Morden, and Kosh Naranek when he encountered Morden in the corridor. Morden "is never alone" and the darkness that fills the place is the actual essence of the creatures called the Shadows. The insectoid exoskeleton an encounter suit makes sense. Something that represents their original physical shapes that they lost eons ago. Being that they are the oldest of all the races left in the galaxy... they no longer have physical bodies.

    Who's more powerful? Neither. I think its a question of the power of light and dark. Philosophically speaking sometimes forces of light wins and sometimes forces of darkness wins. Rarely do you read of the two opposing forces in a head on collision.

    Plus we didn't see what the two shadows actually did to Kosh Naranek. With the explosion of light/energy along the hull of B5, did the two shadows also get annihilated in the encounter?
    The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by WalkingEagle
      Who's more powerful? Neither. I think its a question of the power of light and dark. Philosophically speaking sometimes forces of light wins and sometimes forces of darkness wins. Rarely do you read of the two opposing forces in a head on collision.
      There's light, there's dark, and then there's Grey...

      With the explosion of light/energy along the hull of B5, did the two shadows also get annihilated in the encounter?
      From JMS: (quoted from 5/13/96)

      2. If Kosh did take out some Shadows, will more be sent to Morden as
      replacements?

      He didn't. Hurt 'em good, but didn't take them out.
      FP

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      • #4
        So why are the Shadows easier to kill than Vorlons? From reading the techno-mage trilogy, we know that the Shadow carapaces are also encounter suits of sorts.
        One thought might be in the circumstances. Earth forces were dealing with PPGs, which are intentionally limited weapons because they don't want to run the risk of damaging a hull or what not. Likewise, it probably isn't unreasonable to assume that the Shadows limited themselves in order to not damage the integrity of the station. On Centauri Prime, though, if they missed or the fire fight escalated, they wouldn't necessarily care about knocking down walls. Those weapons couldv'e been much more powerful, and surprise allowed them to keep collateral damage down. As far as the Shadow attacked by Sheridan, I seem to recall JMS saying that it wasn'r killed. I can't swear to that, though. My impression has always been then he sent the humans running for cover and caused the Shadow to hesitate or fall back a few steps in order to escape the room.
        "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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        • #5
          <<Plus we didn't see what the two shadows actually did to Kosh Naranek. With the explosion of light/energy along the hull of B5, did the two shadows also get annihilated in the encounter?>>

          Read the techno-mage books. Do it.
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by WorkerCaste
            One thought might be in the circumstances. Earth forces were dealing with PPGs, which are intentionally limited weapons because they don't want to run the risk of damaging a hull or what not. Likewise, it probably isn't unreasonable to assume that the Shadows limited themselves in order to not damage the integrity of the station. On Centauri Prime, though, if they missed or the fire fight escalated, they wouldn't necessarily care about knocking down walls. Those weapons couldv'e been much more powerful, and surprise allowed them to keep collateral damage down.
            Yep, the difference between sidearms and field arms has long been known to be the difference between life and death. Plus, even if the Shadows on CP were not killed, they would have been stunned by the energy directed against them and then been more concerned with the destruction of their base than the rescue of Morden.

            As far as the Shadow attacked by Sheridan, I seem to recall JMS saying that it wasn'r killed. I can't swear to that, though. My impression has always been then he sent the humans running for cover and caused the Shadow to hesitate or fall back a few steps in order to escape the room.
            I also recall him saying this, but couldn't find it quickly in the some-bazillion posts on the ep.
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by FuryPilot
              There's light, there's dark, and then there's Grey...



              From JMS: (quoted from 5/13/96)



              FP
              Grey??? Not when it comes to energy. Opposing forces of that magnitude will cancel each other out. The Vorlons and the Shadows are beings of energy. They no longer have corporeal bodies like we have. But judging from JMS quote and from the episode I would say that Kosh Narenek was outnumbered and that the 2 shadows with Morden were able to reduce Kosh to a flash of light... pure energy. Too bad we couldn't see it in the episode. That must have been an awesome sight.
              The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                <<Plus we didn't see what the two shadows actually did to Kosh Naranek. With the explosion of light/energy along the hull of B5, did the two shadows also get annihilated in the encounter?>>

                Read the techno-mage books. Do it.
                Nope. Don't want to read the books because they don't come directly from JMS. I will only take what he says out of his mouth as fact.
                The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by WalkingEagle
                  Nope. Don't want to read the books because they don't come directly from JMS. I will only take what he says out of his mouth as fact.
                  Then you don't accept the episodes of the series that he didn't write either?

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jan
                    Then you don't accept the episodes of the series that he didn't write either?

                    Jan
                    Not exactly simply because JMS sometimes elaborate on those episodes in his future writings. Books are different. The authors follow the B5 "bible" and JMS has final approval. But the writings in the books never appear in any of the episodes or movies. When TMOS comes out then you can tell me if JMS used any of the books in the movie.
                    The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WalkingEagle
                      Not exactly simply because JMS sometimes elaborate on those episodes in his future writings. Books are different. The authors follow the B5 "bible" and JMS has final approval. But the writings in the books never appear in any of the episodes or movies. When TMOS comes out then you can tell me if JMS used any of the books in the movie.
                      Sure they follow the 'bible' but they also write extensively from the 10-30 page outlines that JMS wrote for each. I've seen one of his outlines and a couple of his treatments. Trust me, there's plenty of detail in them to ensure that the books are canon.

                      Also, you can't know exactly what JMS has added to the scripts that don't have his name on them. He tinkered with all of them but it's his policy to not take a writer's credit for that.

                      Jan
                      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jan
                        Sure they follow the 'bible' but they also write extensively from the 10-30 page outlines that JMS wrote for each. I've seen one of his outlines and a couple of his treatments. Trust me, there's plenty of detail in them to ensure that the books are canon.

                        Also, you can't know exactly what JMS has added to the scripts that don't have his name on them. He tinkered with all of them but it's his policy to not take a writer's credit for that.

                        Jan
                        I understand, but to me that is muddied waters. That's equivalent to multiple writers writing one novel. Not good. I'd rather read a novel or short story written by ONE author.

                        When, if ever JMS, writes a B5 novel by himself, then I will read it.

                        I would LOVE to read a short story or a novel written by JMS about the beginnings of the Vorlons or the Shadows. That, of course, would be an impossible writing. LOL!!! Too much information to put in. Besides its best to have the two species stay mysterious.
                        The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          <<But the writings in the books never appear in any of the episodes or movies.>>

                          How do you know unless you've read them? I think you're just one of those anti-reading people. Your arguments make no sense. JMS outline the stories, approves them, they are GREAT books, but you won't read them. It doesn't add up.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                            <<But the writings in the books never appear in any of the episodes or movies.>>

                            How do you know unless you've read them? I think you're just one of those anti-reading people. Your arguments make no sense. JMS outline the stories, approves them, they are GREAT books, but you won't read them. It doesn't add up.
                            Au contrar...

                            My opinions make sense but like G'Kar said... they are just not what you want to hear. LOL!!!

                            As for books. My livingroom is ringed with floor to ceiling bookcases full of books. Most of them are mysteries, old literature and science books. Some love stories, some classic horror and modern horror. I have two complete bookcases of movie dvds and music cds. Not to mention a truck load of LPs.
                            The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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                            • #15
                              No, because your "opinons" are not opinions. You made a totally incorrect statement in the snipped quote from you that I used. If opinion has the ability to ignore facts, then yeah, your opinion makes sense.
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment

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