Question about a few B5 Characters.

[Jan]

The human mind is a wonderful, and vaguely disturbing, thing really.

Got it one, Garibaldi's Hair!

But in a way you make my point for me. Why would a telepath want to know whatever it is you're worried about them knowing? I'm sure any purient curiosity they might have had would have been well and truly satisfied by all sorts of people broadcasting before they ever encountered you. And...face it people tend to be pretty self-centered. How many conversations have you been in where you realized that the other half was just waiting for you to stop talking so they could? If most people barely listen to your words, why would they pay any more attention to your thoughts?

Unless, of course you were broadcasting in explicet detail just exactly what you'd like to do with/to them...

Jan

[moreorless]

While Sheridan had clearly changed in season 4 I think JMS was also going for a bit of misdirection. making us question whether Garibaldi was not infact correct.

For that storyline to work effectively there needed to be some question as to who was actually in the right. If Sheridan is whiter than white then Garibaldi is easy to flag as the "badguy", JMS gets round that by presenting a more distant harder Sheridan. Its only really when we get to Intersections in Real Time that I think he lets us devolp the same connection again.

[Jonas]

I don't know that it's just this once. He admitted knowing something was wrong with Franklin but not doing anything. And suspecting that Garibaldi was drinking again but not doing anything until there was no ignoring it anymore. His character is just more comfortable with tactics than with expressing a softer side.

Good point. But with Lyta it was particularly bad; it wasn't just inaction, it was callousness. (Kicking her out of her quarters may seem minor, but compare it to how Sheridan reacts when he's asked to pay rent. Lyta has sacrificed a lot to the cause, and yet she's treated like a tool.)

I agree that if Sheridan and Co. had taken time to appreciate Lyta and bring her fully into the 'inner circle', though, that she might not have gone quite so far over the edge. I do still think she'd have been a major supporter of Byron's, though.

True, but Byron isn't exactly 100% wrong, either. Maybe Sheridan wouldn't have screwed the telepath situation up quite as badly if he'd had someone at his side who could represent them, make him understand them better. Sheridan rebelled against the Vorlons - if he could have truly understood (emotionally, not just on an abstract level) what the Vorlons had done to the telepaths, he might have treated the situation in a more thoughtful way.

I often think that if Sheridan had taken a stand in that situation, thought of what was morally right instead of what was politically convenient, the telepath situation might have been resolved non-violently. In the end that which seems politically convenient in the short run often turns out catastrophic in the long run (case in point: Londo).

[ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN]

In my opinion, I never seen why they never let the telepath have a world of their own. I think they all would of went away and problem solved. It's not like they had to read minds, it was just that they could. And it always bothered me about the alien telepath, they seemed to be able to live amoung their own races without a problem. Human telepath were hunted down and caged like animals.

As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.

[Andrew_Swallow]

In my opinion, I never seen why they never let the telepath have a world of their own. I think they all would of went away and problem solved. It's not like they had to read minds, it was just that they could. And it always bothered me about the alien telepath, they seemed to be able to live amoung their own races without a problem. Human telepath were hunted down and caged like animals.

The Centauri went further, they killed all their telepaths. It is not accidental that Vir hired Lyta, a human telepath, to investigate why no bodies were being returned - there were Centauri telepaths to send.

As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.

Putting a gun to Lyta's head was the only way to arrest her. She could probably stop any weapon less than a nuclear bomb. A nuke would have destroyed Babylon 5.

[Jan]

The Centauri went further, they killed all their telepaths. It is not accidental that Vir hired Lyta, a human telepath, to investigate why no bodies were being returned - there were Centauri telepaths to send.

Not true. We saw several Centauri telepaths - The one who broke Brother Edward's mind-wipe in 'Gethsemane' and the one who read Vir in 'And the Rock...'. Don't forget the four attached to the Centauri emperor, either. There may have been others but those are the ones I recall offhand.

I don't have anything to back this up with but I always thought the Centauri were more accepting of psi talents given their common ability to know about their own deaths and the number of people with the gift of prophecy in their culture.

Jan

[ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN]

Vir hired Lyta because she was a GOOD telepath and he new she could get the job done and she was B5 assigned telepath after all and was readily accessible to him.

[Jonas]

As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.

He tricked Talia into scanning Morden against her will in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum". That was pretty rotten, though again driven by desperation and stress instead of hatred or a desire to harm.

[trimotor]

First off, I didn't mean to offend with my earlier comments. It's just that I've had these sorts of discussions before and it generally ends up being with someone who hasn't seen the show in years. I just wasn't sure if that was the case with any of the people responding. Sorry.

Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out where some of the things in the discussion are coming from. Maybe because I personally take a "If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen" policy with TV shows and movies. Otherwise it gets much to difficult to keep track of. Case in point: Take a look at the mess the Star Wars universe has become now that they let pretty much anyone write books in that universe.

As far as Lyta goes, she's not all that innocent, but she was right in that nobody (except Zack) just showed up to see how she was doing. After all that she had done and was being asked to do, nobody thought to put her on staff at B5 or the Alliance so she could make a living and remain on call for them. Instead Zack gets sent to ask her to move into smaller quarters. Byron was the first person (maybe ever) to genuinely care for her. Add in his noble cause and it's no wonder she fell for him. I do find it sad though that she was unable to pick up Byrons cause, and instead did the one thing Byron said he wouldn't allow: killing in his name.

[Jan]

He tricked Talia into scanning Morden against her will in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum". That was pretty rotten, though again driven by desperation and stress instead of hatred or a desire to harm.

There were quite a number of times when our 'good' guys strayed more than a little into grey. Generally it was for what would be considered good reasons but it often shattered any semblance of due process.

First off, I didn't mean to offend with my earlier comments. It's just that I've had these sorts of discussions before and it generally ends up being with someone who hasn't seen the show in years. I just wasn't sure if that was the case with any of the people responding. Sorry.

Glad to see you back, Trimotor, and no offense taken. We really enjoy new voices and viewpoints around here to stimulate conversation and we're not afraid of spirited disagreement as long as it stays on topic and polite. New viewer or extremely knowlegable, it's all for fun. And it's great that there's still so much to talk about!

Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out where some of the things in the discussion are coming from. Maybe because I personally take a "If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen" policy with TV shows and movies. Otherwise it gets much to difficult to keep track of. Case in point: Take a look at the mess the Star Wars universe has become now that they let pretty much anyone write books in that universe.

A perfectly valid stance. Fortunately with B5 we have only one voice to dictate what's canon, and that's JMS; and a much smaller pool to search for canon material. Even he's reserved the right to only be held to what's seen onscreen. But generally, what you'll see discussed as canon here are all of the episodes and movies, the three trilogies, the short stories and two of the nine Dell books, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (written by Kathryn Drennan the former Mrs. JMS) and "The Shadow Within" (written by the same author as the Techno-mage trilogy).

Some of us are going to be expressing things that JMS talked about in his script book series and perhaps other things that were found in those books. For instance, in the free volume 15, JMS published the 'original' outline that he wrote between the making of 'The Gathering' and the start of filming the first season. It's startling how much stayed the same and yet how much was different. If you don't recognize where something referred to is coming from, feel free to ask and we old-timers should be more aware that not everybody has access to all of the same resources. There's no hard and fast rule, but it's nice to be able to point to what event on screen or post (or other source) from JMS caused you to form an opinion.

I do find it sad though that she was unable to pick up Byrons cause, and instead did the one thing Byron said he wouldn't allow: killing in his name.

Good point. While she was influenced by Byron, we know of another situation she was involved in where she felt that the telepaths "did what we had to do" to a mundane that left him insane and straitjacketed. Even though she left the Psi Cops after that, it's clear that she'd accepted part of the indoctrination.

Jan

[JoeD80]

But generally, what you'll see discussed as canon here are all of the episodes and movies, the three trilogies, the short stories and two of the nine Dell books, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (written by Kathryn Drennan the former Mrs. JMS) and "The Shadow Within" (written by the same author as the Techno-mage trilogy).

And the comics, particularly those involving Sinclair.

[Jan]

And the comics, particularly those involving Sinclair.

Oops, forgot those. Thanks JoeD80!

Well...except for one particular typo!

Jan

[moreorless]

Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need. The military doesn't promote quiet 'Please, thank you guys." They promote guys who can shout during combat and get in people's face, because lives are on the line. Sheridan has every right to get in anyone in the command staff's face when he feels they step out of line and get a pat on the back when he does so. Sheridan is one of the few legit military characters I have seen.

Thats a very good point and I think an area where B5 clearly differs from peoples expectations from Trek. B5 presents a Military/Law Enforcing enviroment much closer to that which we have today and I don't think Sheridan is the only example of that.

To reverse the situation just look at Garabali's reaction to Sheridan keeping Morden locked up without charge during In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum. Not chummy advice for him to stop doing so but harsh criticism and quiting his position. Thats in a situation where Sheridan has not gone "over the edge" aswell, if he'd say have tried to beat the truth out of Morden the impression I get is that Garabali would not have been willing to take back his position.

[Garibaldi's Hair]

Just to step back to Lyta for a second, I think part of the issue is the general sense of apprehension and distrust of anything Vorlon following the events of the Shadow War. Sheridan trusted the first Kosh, but very definitely not the second one, and with Lyta having had her powers greatly enhanced by the Vorlons no one really knows exactly what she is now capable of or what agenda she might be following.

Moreover, Lyta admits on screen (though I can't remember exactly where - possibly late S5 (The Wheel of Fire?) while she is talking with Garibaldi in her cell) that, thanks to the Vorlons, she is indeed capable of much more than she has shown them so far.

I think Sheridan is probably justified in considering Lyta a threat to station security but, at the same time, grateful to her for what she has done for them in the wars to date. In Thirdspace she is seen acting under the influence of the Vorlon device after the Vorlons themselves had left the galaxy. That has to sow seeds of mistrust, especially as it shows that Lyta cannot guarantee that she will always have her enhanced powers under her own control. Combined with a general mistrust of telepaths among "normals", it isn't hard to see how she became isolated.

[Jonas]

Just to step back to Lyta for a second, I think part of the issue is the general sense of apprehension and distrust of anything Vorlon following the events of the Shadow War. Sheridan trusted the first Kosh, but very definitely not the second one, and with Lyta having had her powers greatly enhanced by the Vorlons no one really knows exactly what she is now capable of or what agenda she might be following.

Moreover, Lyta admits on screen (though I can't remember exactly where - possibly late S5 (The Wheel of Fire?) while she is talking with Garibaldi in her cell) that, thanks to the Vorlons, she is indeed capable of much more than she has shown them so far.

Ironically, almost all of that also applies to Sheridan himself. He, too, is a child of the Vorlons eventually forced to act against them.