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  • JoeD80
    replied
    Originally posted by Triple F View Post
    So it did appear a bit out of character.
    When someone is able to bend the entire population of 250,000 to their will at once, I think putting a gun to their head may be a the correct and natural response.

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  • DeMonk
    replied
    Well, it is understandable. Would you feel at ease with somebody who can read your mind? Knows all your fears? Your mistakes?
    I know that would make me feel very vulnerable indeed and I'm quite sure how I would have treated her, psi-rules or not.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Triple F View Post
    The Lyta character was greatly undervalued by the command staff (especially Sheridan) û see helped unify the League against the shadows, got the Vorlon off the station, tried to contact Sheridan after he blew up the shadow city û all at great personal risk. But after seeing her lover being flambÚed and she started acting up SheridanÆs first response was to put a gun to her head!!

    Nice scene btw, and I can see a rational for doing it, but given this was Lyta û a friend - and he was immune to what she was doing, it seemed he threaten to blow her head off more for dramatic effect than anything else. So it did appear a bit out of character.
    I might almost agree with that except for one thing: When he pointed a gun at her, she effectively had the entire Zocalo held hostage with her mind. If she could make them tap on tables, she could have made them do pretty much anything. Superficially, yeah, she was throwing a tantrum but she was using a whole lot of people to do it with. Plus, none of the mundanes really trusted her, no matter how often they used her. She wasn't really a friend, just a tool to them.

    I didn't really appreciate the Lyta arc until I'd seen the show multiple times. It wasn't until at least the third watch that I really saw the unconscious prejudice that Lyta was subjected to by...well, everyone. And often not so unconscious; look how Garibaldi treated her when she asked for a job.

    Ah, now you've got me wishing I knew more about the Telepath War. I've always been convinced that it was both teep vs teep and teep vs mundanes. I'd love to see what JMS would do with it.

    Jan

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  • Triple F
    replied
    The Lyta character was greatly undervalued by the command staff (especially Sheridan) û see helped unify the League against the shadows, got the Vorlon off the station, tried to contact Sheridan after he blew up the shadow city û all at great personal risk. But after seeing her lover being flambÚed and she started acting up SheridanÆs first response was to put a gun to her head!!

    Nice scene btw, and I can see a rational for doing it, but given this was Lyta û a friend - and he was immune to what she was doing, it seemed he threaten to blow her head off more for dramatic effect than anything else. So it did appear a bit out of character.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Trimotor, you're welcome not to like something and to state any opinion you like but calling into question our memories or supposed credentials probably isn't the way to have this conversation. There are a number of us here who know the show and JMS' work very well and who have watched the show many more than four times.

    There are many things about B5 that probably "could have been done better" but your knowledge of basic psychology probably isn't comparable to JMS' degree in same so perhaps a better approach than assuming that your opinion of things is better would be to try to look for the reasons why he had his characters act the way they did. Sometimes it was for dramatic necessity but for the most part it was for pretty legitimate human reasons.

    Jan

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  • trimotor
    replied
    I have to wonder how long it's been since some of you have seen these episodes. I've just recently finished watching them for the fourth time so perhaps my memory is a bit more fresh. I do know basic psychology, and use it in my job. People in highly responsible positions do not get to be in those positions if they have a complete inability to control their tempers. Sheridan is a bit hot headed by nature, but he always tries to remain reasonable. He would be an utter failure on the council and nobody would have followed him if he let people push his buttons so easily. So for him to rip into Garibaldi after some snarky or sarcastic remark, which he should certainly expect, is definitely not like him. I get what they were trying to do with these disagreements between Sheridan and Garibaldi, but it could have been done better in my opinion.

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  • Jonas
    replied
    Originally posted by trimotor View Post
    Jonas, Normally Sheridan would try to calmly discuss the matter. He wanted to know why Garibaldi was acting like that and resolve any issues the two might have. Sheridan was confused, not angry. So it makes no sense in the first conversation for him to have lost his temper.
    When someone you consider your friend, someone you've trusted with your life, suddenly seems to turn on you for no good reason, it's easy to become frustrated and angry. And then it's easy to snap.

    I've certainly reacted that way myself to lesser offenses.

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  • lotjx
    replied
    Susan was in a deep depression after Sheridan blow a hole into Z'Ha'Dum. She went straight to auto-pilot in keeping the station afloat. I believe Franklin was still dealing with all the refugees and wounded from the first encounter with the Shadows. Zack was also busy dealing with his new job as head of security. Delenn fasted and Lennier was not going to leave her side. G'Kar and Marcus were really the only ones with free time to go search for anyone.

    We also have to remember that going to Z'Ha'Dum was a straight up suicide mission and everyone knew it. I am still not entirely sure why the Shadows didn't blow up the White Star when it appeared since we knew the Shadow ships went back to investigate what happened. Going after Garibaldi was going to be tricky since everyone knew where Sheridan was, there was little or no clues where Garibaldi went to. I am sure they figured the Shadows had him, but where was the real question and if it was Z'Ha"Dum again, it was a suicide mission. G'Kar got lucky finding any information about where Michael could be, but it had more to do with Bester letting them find him. I am pretty sure everyone realized it was very simple to get Michael back and how weird it was the ship they found him on self-destructed and ejected him. Michael's return was more suspicious then Sheridan getting help from random alien.
    Last edited by lotjx; 04-27-2011, 05:39 PM.

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  • FuryPilot
    replied
    To me, the real telling point is that just a few episodes earlier, Geribaldi went after G'Kar in Walkabout for not sending in the Narn battlecruiser when Sheridan was alone testing his Telepath theory against a Shadow vessel. Basically saying that a CO had the right to order his men in to die if the cause is right.

    Contrast that to the snark he gives off when Sheridan orders him and a small security team in to "invite" Ulkesh to leave the station.

    Sheridan would have known of the severe changes in Garibaldi and snapping back makes sense. After all, since he'd resigned at this point Sheridan couldn't relieve him of duty and locked him up...

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  • Doom Shepherd
    replied
    Originally posted by trimotor View Post
    Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.
    Given that Garibaldi is quite adept at saying exactly the wrong things to people, especially Sheridan, even when he's NOT being Bester-influenced, it's no surprise to me that the conversation deteriorated that badly that quickly.

    Have you never had a conversation with someone who not only KNEW which of your buttons to push, but WANTED, even LIKED, to push them?

    I don't think Sheridan has a short fuse. I think that, like myself, Sheridan has a long fuse... with a FUSION BOMB at the end of it.

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  • I, Zathras
    replied
    Yeah, the Lennier arc really built up through the seasons, but it was nice and subtle. The only let down was not knowing the real details of his death.

    In relation to Michael Garibaldi, I think it was more people like Ivanova and Franklin whom I wanted to see more of a reaction from. I liked the way G'Kar went after him, it was a neat touch because they'd always had a good relationship (Michael turning a blind eye to weapons shipments, the book of G'Quan conversations etc) but it was Susan and Stephen who I felt didn't really connect too much.

    As for after Lorien left, I'm getting to those episodes now for the third time (first time was many many years ago, second viewing was only many years ago) so I'll see what I make of it this time, but I can still understand why Michael felt left out to a degree. Pre Corp programming he would have let it slide, trusting in his superiors, but post Programming he became a lot more suspicious and untrusting. Be interesting to see where the cracks appear, and to then compare his reaction now to what it might have been

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  • lotjx
    replied
    Lennier was not acting out of character. When it comes to Delenn, he has a short fuse and his also crafty. He almost put Marcus through a wall when he said forget about Delenn's orders when Delenn was kidnapped. He on multiple occassions put himself in harms way and was willing/did harm others if they came to close to her. Lennier seems to give Sheridan death glance at times through season 4 and by season 5 Lennier can barely stand to be in the same room with him. When he finds out Sheridan recalled his White Star back from the Centauri front, he disobeys orders partially to do it for Delenn and partially to spite Sheridan. Lennier leaving Sheridan to die was the culiminaton of Lennier's character day one when he looked up to Delenn's face and fell in love with her.

    To counter the Lorien argument. I would say once Sheridan explained to Michael why he sent him after Darth Kosh and what happened afterwards pretty much should have ended Garibaldi's suspicision if he was acting normal. Also, G'Kar went after Mister Garibaldi as did Marcus in some regards. So, they did go after Michael, they just did it through people you didn't expect. Plus, they only went after John once, Delenn getting the Rangers to attack Z'ha'Dum was about finishing the work Sheridan began. Even though I am sure she would like confirm if he was dead, the primary goal was to destroy the Shadows once and for all.

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  • I, Zathras
    replied
    Hi Trimotor, welcome to the site.

    I must admit, when Season 4 rolled around I found Sheridan a little difficult to warm too. I think that was the intention though, because after going through what he did it was inevitable he would change. I think, after the conversation with the Shadow's, he was able to see the war a bit more clearly. Up to this point he'd only had Kosh who, as different as he was to the rest of his race, was still a Vorlon, and still believed in their side of the argument. Lorien helped Sheridan put the final pieces of the puzzle into place and he came back with a clearer vision of what had to happen. That, coupled with the fact he only had 20 more years left to live, made him more determined and slightly harder.

    Mind you, I still think some of what Garibaldi was saying about Sheridan was valid. Lorien did just appear and we all know Michael likes to know everything about everything and everyone, so with his Psi-Corp programming his paranoia was ramped up. Coupled with Sheridan refusing to tell him anything, he was bound to feel a bit ticked off. Both characters were quite firey, and similar in some ways, so that was always going to make the split more volatile.

    Also, everyone seemed to forget about Garibaldi (not that he knew that). That point always frustrated me, that they made it so much about Sheridan. I know he was more pivotal to the Shadow war, but they had all known Michael for a long time and he seemed an after thought (I know Zack went after him, but he never really discussed it with the chain of command in any detail).

    As for Delenn, In the Beginning shows the darkness in her. There's also a line later in the show where she says something like 'it pleases me that you love who I am, but never forget what I'm capable of' - I've got that totally wrong so someone help me please! It's just that line encapsulates her character I feel. I do think she was a character who showed a range of emotions, but she had met her soul mate in Sheridan. There's was a very different kind of love, one which worked on a number of levels, so I guess the intent was to show that across season's 4 and 5. I didn't know about the telepathic link mind you, that's new information, cheers Jan.

    Apologies for the post being that long, I got carried away!

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  • JoeD80
    replied
    Confusion leading to anger is a pretty common human reaction I think.

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  • trimotor
    replied
    lotjx, What Lennier did was out of character for him in that he did something that he certainly would not normally do. He did snap out of it and was on his way back when he discovered that Sheridan had escaped the room and rescued the Ranger that was trapped with him. All Mordon did was indicate that something like this was coming, but didn't specify say what.

    Jonas, Normally Sheridan would try to calmly discuss the matter. He wanted to know why Garibaldi was acting like that and resolve any issues the two might have. Sheridan was confused, not angry. So it makes no sense in the first conversation for him to have lost his temper. The second conversation it did make sense as Garibaldi hit him.

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