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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow View Post
    The Centauri went further, they killed all their telepaths. It is not accidental that Vir hired Lyta, a human telepath, to investigate why no bodies were being returned - there were Centauri telepaths to send.
    Not true. We saw several Centauri telepaths - The one who broke Brother Edward's mind-wipe in 'Gethsemane' and the one who read Vir in 'And the Rock...'. Don't forget the four attached to the Centauri emperor, either. There may have been others but those are the ones I recall offhand.

    I don't have anything to back this up with but I always thought the Centauri were more accepting of psi talents given their common ability to know about their own deaths and the number of people with the gift of prophecy in their culture.

    Jan

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    Confirmed User

  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN View Post
    In my opinion, I never seen why they never let the telepath have a world of their own. I think they all would of went away and problem solved. It's not like they had to read minds, it was just that they could. And it always bothered me about the alien telepath, they seemed to be able to live amoung their own races without a problem. Human telepath were hunted down and caged like animals.
    The Centauri went further, they killed all their telepaths. It is not accidental that Vir hired Lyta, a human telepath, to investigate why no bodies were being returned - there were Centauri telepaths to send.

    As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.
    Putting a gun to Lyta's head was the only way to arrest her. She could probably stop any weapon less than a nuclear bomb. A nuke would have destroyed Babylon 5.

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  • ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN
    VOICE OF THE RESISTANCE

  • ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN
    replied
    In my opinion, I never seen why they never let the telepath have a world of their own. I think they all would of went away and problem solved. It's not like they had to read minds, it was just that they could. And it always bothered me about the alien telepath, they seemed to be able to live amoung their own races without a problem. Human telepath were hunted down and caged like animals.

    As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.

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  • Jonas
    Confirmed User

  • Jonas
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    I don't know that it's just this once. He admitted knowing something was wrong with Franklin but not doing anything. And suspecting that Garibaldi was drinking again but not doing anything until there was no ignoring it anymore. His character is just more comfortable with tactics than with expressing a softer side.
    Good point. But with Lyta it was particularly bad; it wasn't just inaction, it was callousness. (Kicking her out of her quarters may seem minor, but compare it to how Sheridan reacts when he's asked to pay rent. Lyta has sacrificed a lot to the cause, and yet she's treated like a tool.)

    I agree that if Sheridan and Co. had taken time to appreciate Lyta and bring her fully into the 'inner circle', though, that she might not have gone quite so far over the edge. I do still think she'd have been a major supporter of Byron's, though.
    True, but Byron isn't exactly 100% wrong, either. Maybe Sheridan wouldn't have screwed the telepath situation up quite as badly if he'd had someone at his side who could represent them, make him understand them better. Sheridan rebelled against the Vorlons - if he could have truly understood (emotionally, not just on an abstract level) what the Vorlons had done to the telepaths, he might have treated the situation in a more thoughtful way.

    I often think that if Sheridan had taken a stand in that situation, thought of what was morally right instead of what was politically convenient, the telepath situation might have been resolved non-violently. In the end that which seems politically convenient in the short run often turns out catastrophic in the long run (case in point: Londo).

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  • moreorless
    Confirmed User

  • moreorless
    replied
    While Sheridan had clearly changed in season 4 I think JMS was also going for a bit of misdirection. making us question whether Garibaldi was not infact correct.

    For that storyline to work effectively there needed to be some question as to who was actually in the right. If Sheridan is whiter than white then Garibaldi is easy to flag as the "badguy", JMS gets round that by presenting a more distant harder Sheridan. Its only really when we get to Intersections in Real Time that I think he lets us devolp the same connection again.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair View Post
    The human mind is a wonderful, and vaguely disturbing, thing really.

    Got it one, Garibaldi's Hair!

    But in a way you make my point for me. Why would a telepath want to know whatever it is you're worried about them knowing? I'm sure any purient curiosity they might have had would have been well and truly satisfied by all sorts of people broadcasting before they ever encountered you. And...face it people tend to be pretty self-centered. How many conversations have you been in where you realized that the other half was just waiting for you to stop talking so they could? If most people barely listen to your words, why would they pay any more attention to your thoughts?

    Unless, of course you were broadcasting in explicet detail just exactly what you'd like to do with/to them...

    Jan

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    Busy! Busy! Busy!

  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    But that's the problem, isn't it ... you don't know someone is a telepath just by looking at them, so you have no way of knowing whether any, or how many, are around at any given time.

    Speaking personally, when I am under stress the stuff that is stressing me out does tend to linger in my thoughts more than it should, so if I was concerned about something in my mind being discovered by a telepath, I imagine that something would find its way into my surface thoughts where it could be easily, and accidentally, picked up.

    The human mind is a wonderful, and vaguely disturbing, thing really.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonas View Post
    It's understandable, of course. He has so much on his head. But because his compassion fails just this once, terrible things happen.
    I don't know that it's just this once. He admitted knowing something was wrong with Franklin but not doing anything. And suspecting that Garibaldi was drinking again but not doing anything until there was no ignoring it anymore. His character is just more comfortable with tactics than with expressing a softer side.

    I agree that if Sheridan and Co. had taken time to appreciate Lyta and bring her fully into the 'inner circle', though, that she might not have gone quite so far over the edge. I do still think she'd have been a major supporter of Byron's, though.

    Originally posted by DeMonk
    Well, it is understandable. Would you feel at ease with somebody who can read your mind? Knows all your fears? Your mistakes?
    I know that would make me feel very vulnerable indeed and I'm quite sure how I would have treated her, psi-rules or not.
    That's an interesting question, one none of us can really know until we're faced with real telepaths. But I have given it some thought in the past when reading/watching stories with telepaths and I came to the conclusion that I *think* that I wouldn't care all that much if somebody I met was a member of the Corps.

    Really, when it comes down to it, why would a telepath *want* to probe your mind deep enough to know all the embarrassing stuff about you? Most of the time that stuff's not going to be part of your surface thoughts so unless the teep was looking to blackmail you, they'd have no desire to look further.

    Even if there were no Corps yet, I like to think I wouldn't be paranoid if there were telepaths around that I didn't know about. Despite the fact that you could find Bester and his bloodhound units under every metaphorical rock, teeps are a vast minority in the B5 universe and I don't have any reason to think they'd be rare if they were around in reality. In that case, even without training I think what I said would still apply with one other consideration: what would be the odds that a teep was anywhere around to read all my secrets? Almost non-existant, so I'd still be safe.

    At least that's what I think that I think until I discover that real telepaths exist.

    Jan

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  • Jonas
    Confirmed User

  • Jonas
    replied
    I agree that some of Lyta's actions are problematic, but I don't think any of them would have occured if the others had treated her right. Lyta, not Byron, is Sheridan's greatest mistake. She was always an ally, not a friend, and that he couldn't take the time to understand her (she was a victim of the Vorlons - everything she does proceeds from their abuse/reprogramming) lead to many catastrophic consequences.

    It's understandable, of course. He has so much on his head. But because his compassion fails just this once, terrible things happen.

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  • lotjx
    Confirmed User

  • lotjx
    replied
    Lyta sent a signal to have Z'Ha'Dum destoy itself and she did not only to stop the younger races from getting Shadow tech, but as a screw you to Bester. She could have told them her plan and blocked Bester as well, but she decided to do it herself. She knew that Byron was spying on the others and went along with it, because of her love/obsession with him. She went into Garibaldi's mind without his consent as an act of curosity. Lyta is far from innocent from being treated badly.

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  • Triple F
    Confirmed User

  • Triple F
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    That's just because Kosh is showing his age.

    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    Well Lochley had been told by EarthForce that many Psi Corps facilities have been attacked, likely because of Lyta. Also Franklin saw Lyta make a Drazi shoot himself just a bit ago, so perhaps he told Lochley about that. So should the Captain talk calmy to her or have a team ready just in case?
    Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't. The person who was telling Lochley about the well funded terrorists just said the money trail stopped at Babylon 5 – Lochley just assumed/surmised it was Lyta. Which makes the scenario of turning up with an armed security detail who immediately surrounded her all the more surprising.
    Triple F
    Confirmed User
    Last edited by Triple F; 04-29-2011, 06:16 PM.

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  • JoeD80
    Confirmed User

  • JoeD80
    replied
    Originally posted by Triple F View Post
    Nowhere is it implied that anyone outside the zocalo was effected, or she was capable of doing so (Kosh was exhausted back in season 2 when a lot less than 250,000 saw him) – no need to exaggerate. Jan makes the valid counter point (which was also the rationale I was referring to).
    That's just because Kosh is showing his age.

    Originally posted by Triple F View Post
    It just seemed a little unexpected that not one person talked to her first – but instead an armed team try to arrest her!!
    Well Lochley had been told by EarthForce that many Psi Corps facilities have been attacked, likely because of Lyta. Also Franklin saw Lyta make a Drazi shoot himself just a bit ago, so perhaps he told Lochley about that. So should the Captain talk calmy to her or have a team ready just in case?
    JoeD80
    Confirmed User
    Last edited by JoeD80; 04-29-2011, 06:13 PM.

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  • Triple F
    Confirmed User

  • Triple F
    replied
    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
    While I agree Lyta is treated poorly by the command staff, part of it has to do with the fact she gains their trust then throws it away for personal reaons.
    What personal reasons!? Season 5 and the proposed film that almost was, was all about the misuse of Shadow technology. Crusade was going to go that way as well. She knew about the Drakh and warned them (it was them that destroyed ZaÆ HaÆ Dum). If she never done that (possibly as part of the instructions left by the Vorlons) then how many more weapons (and the problems they caused) would have remained.

    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
    Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need.
    HeÆs not a hothead, and the Lyta thing has nothing to do with the military chain of command. HeÆd resigned from Earthforce, had no jurisdiction and someone from Earth-Gov wanted her arrested for terrorist activities against psi corps. It just seemed a little unexpected that not one person talked to her first û but instead an armed team try to arrest her!! Which, incidently, caused her to react by taking control of everyone in the Zocalo û up until then she hadnÆt been throwing her psychic weight around.

    The whole thing just felt a bit like it was put together for dramatic effect (which is no bad thing in itself). Though thatÆs just a personal opinion.
    Triple F
    Confirmed User
    Last edited by Triple F; 04-29-2011, 05:32 PM.

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  • lotjx
    Confirmed User

  • lotjx
    replied
    No, Sheridan was completely in the right about shoving a gun into her head and would have been perfectly justified to pull the trigger. He gave her a choice probably more diplomatic then most people after what they saw her do. I don't know if I agree that Lyta was a tool used by everybody. It certainly happens in season 3, but when she goes to Z'Ha'Dum with Delenn and Susan, there seems to be a trust built. Then she goes and destroys that trust when she blows up Z'Ha'Dum behind their backs. While I agree Lyta is
    treated poorly by the command staff, part of it has to do with the fact she gains their trust then throws it away for personal reaons.

    Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need. The military doesn't promote quiet 'Please, thank you guys." They promote guys who can shout during combat and get in people's face, because lives are on the line. Sheridan has every right to get in anyone in the command staff's face when he feels they step out of line and get a pat on the back when he does so. Sheridan is one of the few legit military characters I have seen.

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  • Triple F
    Confirmed User

  • Triple F
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    When someone is able to bend the entire population of 250,000 to their will at once, I think putting a gun to their head may be a the correct and natural response.
    Nowhere is it implied that anyone outside the zocalo was effected, or she was capable of doing so (Kosh was exhausted back in season 2 when a lot less than 250,000 saw him) û no need to exaggerate. Jan makes the valid counter point (which was also the rationale I was referring to).

    What I found interesting is well was how Sheridan didnÆt understand why she was helping the terrorists û believing something other than the obvious had pushed her over the edge.

    Anyway, a topic like this is very subjective and always ends up like two dogs chasing each others tail. ; )

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