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  • #31
    I have to wonder how long it's been since some of you have seen these episodes. I've just recently finished watching them for the fourth time so perhaps my memory is a bit more fresh. I do know basic psychology, and use it in my job. People in highly responsible positions do not get to be in those positions if they have a complete inability to control their tempers. Sheridan is a bit hot headed by nature, but he always tries to remain reasonable. He would be an utter failure on the council and nobody would have followed him if he let people push his buttons so easily. So for him to rip into Garibaldi after some snarky or sarcastic remark, which he should certainly expect, is definitely not like him. I get what they were trying to do with these disagreements between Sheridan and Garibaldi, but it could have been done better in my opinion.

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    • #32
      Trimotor, you're welcome not to like something and to state any opinion you like but calling into question our memories or supposed credentials probably isn't the way to have this conversation. There are a number of us here who know the show and JMS' work very well and who have watched the show many more than four times.

      There are many things about B5 that probably "could have been done better" but your knowledge of basic psychology probably isn't comparable to JMS' degree in same so perhaps a better approach than assuming that your opinion of things is better would be to try to look for the reasons why he had his characters act the way they did. Sometimes it was for dramatic necessity but for the most part it was for pretty legitimate human reasons.

      Jan
      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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      • #33
        The Lyta character was greatly undervalued by the command staff (especially Sheridan) û see helped unify the League against the shadows, got the Vorlon off the station, tried to contact Sheridan after he blew up the shadow city û all at great personal risk. But after seeing her lover being flambÚed and she started acting up SheridanÆs first response was to put a gun to her head!!

        Nice scene btw, and I can see a rational for doing it, but given this was Lyta û a friend - and he was immune to what she was doing, it seemed he threaten to blow her head off more for dramatic effect than anything else. So it did appear a bit out of character.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Triple F View Post
          The Lyta character was greatly undervalued by the command staff (especially Sheridan) û see helped unify the League against the shadows, got the Vorlon off the station, tried to contact Sheridan after he blew up the shadow city û all at great personal risk. But after seeing her lover being flambÚed and she started acting up SheridanÆs first response was to put a gun to her head!!

          Nice scene btw, and I can see a rational for doing it, but given this was Lyta û a friend - and he was immune to what she was doing, it seemed he threaten to blow her head off more for dramatic effect than anything else. So it did appear a bit out of character.
          I might almost agree with that except for one thing: When he pointed a gun at her, she effectively had the entire Zocalo held hostage with her mind. If she could make them tap on tables, she could have made them do pretty much anything. Superficially, yeah, she was throwing a tantrum but she was using a whole lot of people to do it with. Plus, none of the mundanes really trusted her, no matter how often they used her. She wasn't really a friend, just a tool to them.

          I didn't really appreciate the Lyta arc until I'd seen the show multiple times. It wasn't until at least the third watch that I really saw the unconscious prejudice that Lyta was subjected to by...well, everyone. And often not so unconscious; look how Garibaldi treated her when she asked for a job.

          Ah, now you've got me wishing I knew more about the Telepath War. I've always been convinced that it was both teep vs teep and teep vs mundanes. I'd love to see what JMS would do with it.

          Jan
          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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          • #35
            Well, it is understandable. Would you feel at ease with somebody who can read your mind? Knows all your fears? Your mistakes?
            I know that would make me feel very vulnerable indeed and I'm quite sure how I would have treated her, psi-rules or not.
            Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
            John Sheridan

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Triple F View Post
              So it did appear a bit out of character.
              When someone is able to bend the entire population of 250,000 to their will at once, I think putting a gun to their head may be a the correct and natural response.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                When someone is able to bend the entire population of 250,000 to their will at once, I think putting a gun to their head may be a the correct and natural response.
                Nowhere is it implied that anyone outside the zocalo was effected, or she was capable of doing so (Kosh was exhausted back in season 2 when a lot less than 250,000 saw him) û no need to exaggerate. Jan makes the valid counter point (which was also the rationale I was referring to).

                What I found interesting is well was how Sheridan didnÆt understand why she was helping the terrorists û believing something other than the obvious had pushed her over the edge.

                Anyway, a topic like this is very subjective and always ends up like two dogs chasing each others tail. ; )

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                • #38
                  No, Sheridan was completely in the right about shoving a gun into her head and would have been perfectly justified to pull the trigger. He gave her a choice probably more diplomatic then most people after what they saw her do. I don't know if I agree that Lyta was a tool used by everybody. It certainly happens in season 3, but when she goes to Z'Ha'Dum with Delenn and Susan, there seems to be a trust built. Then she goes and destroys that trust when she blows up Z'Ha'Dum behind their backs. While I agree Lyta is
                  treated poorly by the command staff, part of it has to do with the fact she gains their trust then throws it away for personal reaons.

                  Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need. The military doesn't promote quiet 'Please, thank you guys." They promote guys who can shout during combat and get in people's face, because lives are on the line. Sheridan has every right to get in anyone in the command staff's face when he feels they step out of line and get a pat on the back when he does so. Sheridan is one of the few legit military characters I have seen.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
                    While I agree Lyta is treated poorly by the command staff, part of it has to do with the fact she gains their trust then throws it away for personal reaons.
                    What personal reasons!? Season 5 and the proposed film that almost was, was all about the misuse of Shadow technology. Crusade was going to go that way as well. She knew about the Drakh and warned them (it was them that destroyed ZaÆ HaÆ Dum). If she never done that (possibly as part of the instructions left by the Vorlons) then how many more weapons (and the problems they caused) would have remained.

                    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
                    Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need.
                    HeÆs not a hothead, and the Lyta thing has nothing to do with the military chain of command. HeÆd resigned from Earthforce, had no jurisdiction and someone from Earth-Gov wanted her arrested for terrorist activities against psi corps. It just seemed a little unexpected that not one person talked to her first û but instead an armed team try to arrest her!! Which, incidently, caused her to react by taking control of everyone in the Zocalo û up until then she hadnÆt been throwing her psychic weight around.

                    The whole thing just felt a bit like it was put together for dramatic effect (which is no bad thing in itself). Though thatÆs just a personal opinion.
                    Last edited by Triple F; 04-29-2011, 05:32 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                      Nowhere is it implied that anyone outside the zocalo was effected, or she was capable of doing so (Kosh was exhausted back in season 2 when a lot less than 250,000 saw him) – no need to exaggerate. Jan makes the valid counter point (which was also the rationale I was referring to).
                      That's just because Kosh is showing his age.

                      Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                      It just seemed a little unexpected that not one person talked to her first – but instead an armed team try to arrest her!!
                      Well Lochley had been told by EarthForce that many Psi Corps facilities have been attacked, likely because of Lyta. Also Franklin saw Lyta make a Drazi shoot himself just a bit ago, so perhaps he told Lochley about that. So should the Captain talk calmy to her or have a team ready just in case?
                      Last edited by JoeD80; 04-29-2011, 06:13 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                        That's just because Kosh is showing his age.

                        Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                        Well Lochley had been told by EarthForce that many Psi Corps facilities have been attacked, likely because of Lyta. Also Franklin saw Lyta make a Drazi shoot himself just a bit ago, so perhaps he told Lochley about that. So should the Captain talk calmy to her or have a team ready just in case?
                        Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't. The person who was telling Lochley about the well funded terrorists just said the money trail stopped at Babylon 5 – Lochley just assumed/surmised it was Lyta. Which makes the scenario of turning up with an armed security detail who immediately surrounded her all the more surprising.
                        Last edited by Triple F; 04-29-2011, 06:16 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Lyta sent a signal to have Z'Ha'Dum destoy itself and she did not only to stop the younger races from getting Shadow tech, but as a screw you to Bester. She could have told them her plan and blocked Bester as well, but she decided to do it herself. She knew that Byron was spying on the others and went along with it, because of her love/obsession with him. She went into Garibaldi's mind without his consent as an act of curosity. Lyta is far from innocent from being treated badly.

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                          • #43
                            I agree that some of Lyta's actions are problematic, but I don't think any of them would have occured if the others had treated her right. Lyta, not Byron, is Sheridan's greatest mistake. She was always an ally, not a friend, and that he couldn't take the time to understand her (she was a victim of the Vorlons - everything she does proceeds from their abuse/reprogramming) lead to many catastrophic consequences.

                            It's understandable, of course. He has so much on his head. But because his compassion fails just this once, terrible things happen.
                            Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jonas View Post
                              It's understandable, of course. He has so much on his head. But because his compassion fails just this once, terrible things happen.
                              I don't know that it's just this once. He admitted knowing something was wrong with Franklin but not doing anything. And suspecting that Garibaldi was drinking again but not doing anything until there was no ignoring it anymore. His character is just more comfortable with tactics than with expressing a softer side.

                              I agree that if Sheridan and Co. had taken time to appreciate Lyta and bring her fully into the 'inner circle', though, that she might not have gone quite so far over the edge. I do still think she'd have been a major supporter of Byron's, though.

                              Originally posted by DeMonk
                              Well, it is understandable. Would you feel at ease with somebody who can read your mind? Knows all your fears? Your mistakes?
                              I know that would make me feel very vulnerable indeed and I'm quite sure how I would have treated her, psi-rules or not.
                              That's an interesting question, one none of us can really know until we're faced with real telepaths. But I have given it some thought in the past when reading/watching stories with telepaths and I came to the conclusion that I *think* that I wouldn't care all that much if somebody I met was a member of the Corps.

                              Really, when it comes down to it, why would a telepath *want* to probe your mind deep enough to know all the embarrassing stuff about you? Most of the time that stuff's not going to be part of your surface thoughts so unless the teep was looking to blackmail you, they'd have no desire to look further.

                              Even if there were no Corps yet, I like to think I wouldn't be paranoid if there were telepaths around that I didn't know about. Despite the fact that you could find Bester and his bloodhound units under every metaphorical rock, teeps are a vast minority in the B5 universe and I don't have any reason to think they'd be rare if they were around in reality. In that case, even without training I think what I said would still apply with one other consideration: what would be the odds that a teep was anywhere around to read all my secrets? Almost non-existant, so I'd still be safe.

                              At least that's what I think that I think until I discover that real telepaths exist.

                              Jan
                              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                              • #45
                                But that's the problem, isn't it ... you don't know someone is a telepath just by looking at them, so you have no way of knowing whether any, or how many, are around at any given time.

                                Speaking personally, when I am under stress the stuff that is stressing me out does tend to linger in my thoughts more than it should, so if I was concerned about something in my mind being discovered by a telepath, I imagine that something would find its way into my surface thoughts where it could be easily, and accidentally, picked up.

                                The human mind is a wonderful, and vaguely disturbing, thing really.

                                The Optimist: The glass is half full
                                The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
                                The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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