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    Jonas
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  • Jonas
    replied
    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
    The Vorlons may have used Sheridan, but he used them as well at times too and also killed Darth Kosh. He was a pawn, but a pawn that was not fully controlled by the player.
    Yes, but only with the help of... Lyta!

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  • lotjx
    Confirmed User

  • lotjx
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    No, I meant the Season 4 torture scene. I was under the impression he was being telepathaticily scanned as well as being drugged. If he wasn't interrogated by the PSI Corp in some way, I would be shocked and have to facepalm on how stupid Clark would be.

    The Vorlons may have used Sheridan, but he used them as well at times too and also killed Darth Kosh. He was a pawn, but a pawn that was not fully controlled by the player.

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  • Jonas
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  • Jonas
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    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    What telepathic interrogation did Sheridan undergo? We know he was tortured and interrogated under drugs but I don't recall any indication of telepathic scans taking place?
    No, not during the torture. But we do see Bester try and fail to scan him, if I remember correctly.

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  • Jan
    replied
    What telepathic interrogation did Sheridan undergo? We know he was tortured and interrogated under drugs but I don't recall any indication of telepathic scans taking place?

    Jan

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  • Jonas
    Confirmed User

  • Jonas
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    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
    Sheridan doesn't have a lot of power. To be fair, we don't know what power he really has or if the ability to resist certain mind control is one of them.
    He certainly has the ability to resist scanning. He was, in a sense, altered both by Kosh and by Lorien. He comes back from Z'ha'dum and he's different - one of the reasons Garibaldi is so distrustful of him. He may not be the equivalent of a thermonuclear weapon, but Sheridan is in many ways also a former weapon/pawn of the Vorlons. I see strong parallels to Lyta there, which are underlined by the "pay the rent or get kicked out" stories both characters go through.

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  • lotjx
    Confirmed User

  • lotjx
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    Sheridan doesn't have a lot of power. To be fair, we don't know what power he really has or if the ability to resist certain mind control is one of them. He held out a long time under telepathatic interrogation/torture, but we don't know if this was due to Vorlon abilities or the PSI Corp was taking it slow on him. We will never know, but it did make for a good scene even though the math is fuzzy. If you want to look for children of Vorlons, the Minbari got that covered.

    I would like to go back to Sheridan leaving Earthforce. President Clark issued illegal orders and Sheridan was well with his rights as a military man to resist those. He was being a good solider for respecting the law which is above the chain of command. Sheridan respects the chain of command, but also has the ability to ignore like any other solider when the orders violate the law. Sheridan was also not solider or commander to go against Earth Gov. either. Sheridan has acted like a military solider since he arrived on B5 and it was intensified after he became back on Z'ha'Dum due to knowing the full story of the Shadow War as well as the countdown clock in the back of his mind. Even with the countdown clock, he stated he was not ready to fight Earth, but did it anyway, because too innocents were getting killed.

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  • Jonas
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  • Jonas
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    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair View Post
    Just to step back to Lyta for a second, I think part of the issue is the general sense of apprehension and distrust of anything Vorlon following the events of the Shadow War. Sheridan trusted the first Kosh, but very definitely not the second one, and with Lyta having had her powers greatly enhanced by the Vorlons no one really knows exactly what she is now capable of or what agenda she might be following.

    Moreover, Lyta admits on screen (though I can't remember exactly where - possibly late S5 (The Wheel of Fire?) while she is talking with Garibaldi in her cell) that, thanks to the Vorlons, she is indeed capable of much more than she has shown them so far.
    Ironically, almost all of that also applies to Sheridan himself. He, too, is a child of the Vorlons eventually forced to act against them.

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    Busy! Busy! Busy!

  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    Just to step back to Lyta for a second, I think part of the issue is the general sense of apprehension and distrust of anything Vorlon following the events of the Shadow War. Sheridan trusted the first Kosh, but very definitely not the second one, and with Lyta having had her powers greatly enhanced by the Vorlons no one really knows exactly what she is now capable of or what agenda she might be following.

    Moreover, Lyta admits on screen (though I can't remember exactly where - possibly late S5 (The Wheel of Fire?) while she is talking with Garibaldi in her cell) that, thanks to the Vorlons, she is indeed capable of much more than she has shown them so far.

    I think Sheridan is probably justified in considering Lyta a threat to station security but, at the same time, grateful to her for what she has done for them in the wars to date. In Thirdspace she is seen acting under the influence of the Vorlon device after the Vorlons themselves had left the galaxy. That has to sow seeds of mistrust, especially as it shows that Lyta cannot guarantee that she will always have her enhanced powers under her own control. Combined with a general mistrust of telepaths among "normals", it isn't hard to see how she became isolated.
    Garibaldi's Hair
    Busy! Busy! Busy!
    Last edited by Garibaldi's Hair; 05-01-2011, 04:18 PM.

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  • moreorless
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  • moreorless
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    Originally posted by lotjx View Post
    Sheridan is not a hot head, he has moments where goes off, because the military chain of command need. The military doesn't promote quiet 'Please, thank you guys." They promote guys who can shout during combat and get in people's face, because lives are on the line. Sheridan has every right to get in anyone in the command staff's face when he feels they step out of line and get a pat on the back when he does so. Sheridan is one of the few legit military characters I have seen.
    Thats a very good point and I think an area where B5 clearly differs from peoples expectations from Trek. B5 presents a Military/Law Enforcing enviroment much closer to that which we have today and I don't think Sheridan is the only example of that.

    To reverse the situation just look at Garabali's reaction to Sheridan keeping Morden locked up without charge during In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum. Not chummy advice for him to stop doing so but harsh criticism and quiting his position. Thats in a situation where Sheridan has not gone "over the edge" aswell, if he'd say have tried to beat the truth out of Morden the impression I get is that Garabali would not have been willing to take back his position.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    And the comics, particularly those involving Sinclair.
    Oops, forgot those. Thanks JoeD80!

    Well...except for one particular typo!

    Jan

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  • JoeD80
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  • JoeD80
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    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    But generally, what you'll see discussed as canon here are all of the episodes and movies, the three trilogies, the short stories and two of the nine Dell books, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (written by Kathryn Drennan the former Mrs. JMS) and "The Shadow Within" (written by the same author as the Techno-mage trilogy).
    And the comics, particularly those involving Sinclair.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonas View Post
    He tricked Talia into scanning Morden against her will in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum". That was pretty rotten, though again driven by desperation and stress instead of hatred or a desire to harm.
    There were quite a number of times when our 'good' guys strayed more than a little into grey. Generally it was for what would be considered good reasons but it often shattered any semblance of due process.

    Originally posted by trimotor View Post
    First off, I didn't mean to offend with my earlier comments. It's just that I've had these sorts of discussions before and it generally ends up being with someone who hasn't seen the show in years. I just wasn't sure if that was the case with any of the people responding. Sorry.
    Glad to see you back, Trimotor, and no offense taken. We really enjoy new voices and viewpoints around here to stimulate conversation and we're not afraid of spirited disagreement as long as it stays on topic and polite. New viewer or extremely knowlegable, it's all for fun. And it's great that there's still so much to talk about!

    Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out where some of the things in the discussion are coming from. Maybe because I personally take a "If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen" policy with TV shows and movies. Otherwise it gets much to difficult to keep track of. Case in point: Take a look at the mess the Star Wars universe has become now that they let pretty much anyone write books in that universe.
    A perfectly valid stance. Fortunately with B5 we have only one voice to dictate what's canon, and that's JMS; and a much smaller pool to search for canon material. Even he's reserved the right to only be held to what's seen onscreen. But generally, what you'll see discussed as canon here are all of the episodes and movies, the three trilogies, the short stories and two of the nine Dell books, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (written by Kathryn Drennan the former Mrs. JMS) and "The Shadow Within" (written by the same author as the Techno-mage trilogy).

    Some of us are going to be expressing things that JMS talked about in his script book series and perhaps other things that were found in those books. For instance, in the free volume 15, JMS published the 'original' outline that he wrote between the making of 'The Gathering' and the start of filming the first season. It's startling how much stayed the same and yet how much was different. If you don't recognize where something referred to is coming from, feel free to ask and we old-timers should be more aware that not everybody has access to all of the same resources. There's no hard and fast rule, but it's nice to be able to point to what event on screen or post (or other source) from JMS caused you to form an opinion.

    I do find it sad though that she was unable to pick up Byrons cause, and instead did the one thing Byron said he wouldn't allow: killing in his name.
    Good point. While she was influenced by Byron, we know of another situation she was involved in where she felt that the telepaths "did what we had to do" to a mundane that left him insane and straitjacketed. Even though she left the Psi Cops after that, it's clear that she'd accepted part of the indoctrination.

    Jan

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  • trimotor
    Confirmed User

  • trimotor
    replied
    First off, I didn't mean to offend with my earlier comments. It's just that I've had these sorts of discussions before and it generally ends up being with someone who hasn't seen the show in years. I just wasn't sure if that was the case with any of the people responding. Sorry.

    Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out where some of the things in the discussion are coming from. Maybe because I personally take a "If it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen" policy with TV shows and movies. Otherwise it gets much to difficult to keep track of. Case in point: Take a look at the mess the Star Wars universe has become now that they let pretty much anyone write books in that universe.

    As far as Lyta goes, she's not all that innocent, but she was right in that nobody (except Zack) just showed up to see how she was doing. After all that she had done and was being asked to do, nobody thought to put her on staff at B5 or the Alliance so she could make a living and remain on call for them. Instead Zack gets sent to ask her to move into smaller quarters. Byron was the first person (maybe ever) to genuinely care for her. Add in his noble cause and it's no wonder she fell for him. I do find it sad though that she was unable to pick up Byrons cause, and instead did the one thing Byron said he wouldn't allow: killing in his name.
    trimotor
    Confirmed User
    Last edited by trimotor; 05-01-2011, 09:28 AM.

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  • Jonas
    Confirmed User

  • Jonas
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    Originally posted by ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN View Post
    As for Lyta, I think after the the whole Za'Hadum thing, Sheridan realized how powerful a telepath she could be. He did not treat Talia the same way, he treated her with some respect. After finding out Talia was a spy for the PSI-CORPS and his dealings with Bester, I think he just didn't trust any of the telepath.
    He tricked Talia into scanning Morden against her will in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum". That was pretty rotten, though again driven by desperation and stress instead of hatred or a desire to harm.

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  • ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN
    VOICE OF THE RESISTANCE

  • ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN
    replied
    Vir hired Lyta because she was a GOOD telepath and he new she could get the job done and she was B5 assigned telepath after all and was readily accessible to him.

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