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  • #16
    Originally posted by trimotor View Post
    Sheridan and Delenn both seem to have quite a few moments, especially in later seasons, where their actions are not consistent with their normal behavior.
    Don't we all?

    I can think of a number of times when I've done things that seemed shockingly out-of-character, even to my most intimate acquaintances and family.

    (Strangely enough, a number of those tended to also be Moments of Awesome.)
    "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid." -- Quantum Crook, Casey and Andy Webcomic

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    • #17
      Zach did ask Lyta to scan Girabaldi but she refused because he was her friend and the first person she met when she came to B5.

      as to Sheridan and Delenn, I believe there was some kind of pyschic connection between them. She new when he was in danger and he seen visions of her to keep him strong when he was interogated by EA.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Doom Shepherd View Post
        Don't we all?

        I can think of a number of times when I've done things that seemed shockingly out-of-character, even to my most intimate acquaintances and family.

        (Strangely enough, a number of those tended to also be Moments of Awesome.)
        Lennier had a moment like what you're talking about when he left Sheridan trapped in that room on the whitestar instead of opening the door for him. Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by trimotor View Post
          Lennier had a moment like what you're talking about when he left Sheridan trapped in that room on the whitestar instead of opening the door for him. Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.
          That's how people are ... black one minute, white another with varying shades of grey sandwiched in between. We can't praise B5 for having very real, human characters (even the aliens) and then complain when they behave the way real human beings do.

          And ... as it turned out, everyone was right to be suspicious of Garibaldi, because he came back under the control of Bester and the Psi Corps
          The Optimist: The glass is half full
          The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
          The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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          • #20
            Originally posted by trimotor View Post
            Lennier had a moment like what you're talking about when he left Sheridan trapped in that room on the whitestar instead of opening the door for him. Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.
            Lennier betraying Sheridan was hinted back in Day of the Dead and Lennier even admitted to Marcus in season 3, he was in love with her. That was a very in character moment since it was the resolution to Lennier's inner conflict. He just choose poorly. I guess I forgot about Zack asking her to scan Garibaldi. Sheridan and Garibaldi have a typical tough guy relationship where they are talking sports and joking around one minute then yelling at each other the next. When Sheridan and Delenn acted a little off, I chalk down to the stress of their jobs as well as impossible burdens bought on them by themselves and others.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by trimotor View Post
              Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.
              You seem to be forgetting the content of all the previous episodes. Sheridan has lots of reasons to be angry at Garibaldi; he tries to get over them, but the discussion takes a bad turn, and he snaps. In fact, the trouble Garibaldi and Sheridan have talking to each other is also emphasized in a later discussion with Delenn.
              Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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              • #22
                lotjx, What Lennier did was out of character for him in that he did something that he certainly would not normally do. He did snap out of it and was on his way back when he discovered that Sheridan had escaped the room and rescued the Ranger that was trapped with him. All Mordon did was indicate that something like this was coming, but didn't specify say what.

                Jonas, Normally Sheridan would try to calmly discuss the matter. He wanted to know why Garibaldi was acting like that and resolve any issues the two might have. Sheridan was confused, not angry. So it makes no sense in the first conversation for him to have lost his temper. The second conversation it did make sense as Garibaldi hit him.

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                • #23
                  Confusion leading to anger is a pretty common human reaction I think.

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                  • #24
                    Hi Trimotor, welcome to the site.

                    I must admit, when Season 4 rolled around I found Sheridan a little difficult to warm too. I think that was the intention though, because after going through what he did it was inevitable he would change. I think, after the conversation with the Shadow's, he was able to see the war a bit more clearly. Up to this point he'd only had Kosh who, as different as he was to the rest of his race, was still a Vorlon, and still believed in their side of the argument. Lorien helped Sheridan put the final pieces of the puzzle into place and he came back with a clearer vision of what had to happen. That, coupled with the fact he only had 20 more years left to live, made him more determined and slightly harder.

                    Mind you, I still think some of what Garibaldi was saying about Sheridan was valid. Lorien did just appear and we all know Michael likes to know everything about everything and everyone, so with his Psi-Corp programming his paranoia was ramped up. Coupled with Sheridan refusing to tell him anything, he was bound to feel a bit ticked off. Both characters were quite firey, and similar in some ways, so that was always going to make the split more volatile.

                    Also, everyone seemed to forget about Garibaldi (not that he knew that). That point always frustrated me, that they made it so much about Sheridan. I know he was more pivotal to the Shadow war, but they had all known Michael for a long time and he seemed an after thought (I know Zack went after him, but he never really discussed it with the chain of command in any detail).

                    As for Delenn, In the Beginning shows the darkness in her. There's also a line later in the show where she says something like 'it pleases me that you love who I am, but never forget what I'm capable of' - I've got that totally wrong so someone help me please! It's just that line encapsulates her character I feel. I do think she was a character who showed a range of emotions, but she had met her soul mate in Sheridan. There's was a very different kind of love, one which worked on a number of levels, so I guess the intent was to show that across season's 4 and 5. I didn't know about the telepathic link mind you, that's new information, cheers Jan.

                    Apologies for the post being that long, I got carried away!
                    I'm a pessimist: that way you're never disappointed but frequently, pleasantly surprised

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                    • #25
                      Lennier was not acting out of character. When it comes to Delenn, he has a short fuse and his also crafty. He almost put Marcus through a wall when he said forget about Delenn's orders when Delenn was kidnapped. He on multiple occassions put himself in harms way and was willing/did harm others if they came to close to her. Lennier seems to give Sheridan death glance at times through season 4 and by season 5 Lennier can barely stand to be in the same room with him. When he finds out Sheridan recalled his White Star back from the Centauri front, he disobeys orders partially to do it for Delenn and partially to spite Sheridan. Lennier leaving Sheridan to die was the culiminaton of Lennier's character day one when he looked up to Delenn's face and fell in love with her.

                      To counter the Lorien argument. I would say once Sheridan explained to Michael why he sent him after Darth Kosh and what happened afterwards pretty much should have ended Garibaldi's suspicision if he was acting normal. Also, G'Kar went after Mister Garibaldi as did Marcus in some regards. So, they did go after Michael, they just did it through people you didn't expect. Plus, they only went after John once, Delenn getting the Rangers to attack Z'ha'Dum was about finishing the work Sheridan began. Even though I am sure she would like confirm if he was dead, the primary goal was to destroy the Shadows once and for all.

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                      • #26
                        Yeah, the Lennier arc really built up through the seasons, but it was nice and subtle. The only let down was not knowing the real details of his death.

                        In relation to Michael Garibaldi, I think it was more people like Ivanova and Franklin whom I wanted to see more of a reaction from. I liked the way G'Kar went after him, it was a neat touch because they'd always had a good relationship (Michael turning a blind eye to weapons shipments, the book of G'Quan conversations etc) but it was Susan and Stephen who I felt didn't really connect too much.

                        As for after Lorien left, I'm getting to those episodes now for the third time (first time was many many years ago, second viewing was only many years ago) so I'll see what I make of it this time, but I can still understand why Michael felt left out to a degree. Pre Corp programming he would have let it slide, trusting in his superiors, but post Programming he became a lot more suspicious and untrusting. Be interesting to see where the cracks appear, and to then compare his reaction now to what it might have been
                        I'm a pessimist: that way you're never disappointed but frequently, pleasantly surprised

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by trimotor View Post
                          Sheridan going from reasonable to biting Garabaldis head off inside of 30 seconds during a conversation doesn't exactly qualify as the same in my book.
                          Given that Garibaldi is quite adept at saying exactly the wrong things to people, especially Sheridan, even when he's NOT being Bester-influenced, it's no surprise to me that the conversation deteriorated that badly that quickly.

                          Have you never had a conversation with someone who not only KNEW which of your buttons to push, but WANTED, even LIKED, to push them?

                          I don't think Sheridan has a short fuse. I think that, like myself, Sheridan has a long fuse... with a FUSION BOMB at the end of it.
                          "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid." -- Quantum Crook, Casey and Andy Webcomic

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                          • #28
                            To me, the real telling point is that just a few episodes earlier, Geribaldi went after G'Kar in Walkabout for not sending in the Narn battlecruiser when Sheridan was alone testing his Telepath theory against a Shadow vessel. Basically saying that a CO had the right to order his men in to die if the cause is right.

                            Contrast that to the snark he gives off when Sheridan orders him and a small security team in to "invite" Ulkesh to leave the station.

                            Sheridan would have known of the severe changes in Garibaldi and snapping back makes sense. After all, since he'd resigned at this point Sheridan couldn't relieve him of duty and locked him up...

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                            • #29
                              Susan was in a deep depression after Sheridan blow a hole into Z'Ha'Dum. She went straight to auto-pilot in keeping the station afloat. I believe Franklin was still dealing with all the refugees and wounded from the first encounter with the Shadows. Zack was also busy dealing with his new job as head of security. Delenn fasted and Lennier was not going to leave her side. G'Kar and Marcus were really the only ones with free time to go search for anyone.

                              We also have to remember that going to Z'Ha'Dum was a straight up suicide mission and everyone knew it. I am still not entirely sure why the Shadows didn't blow up the White Star when it appeared since we knew the Shadow ships went back to investigate what happened. Going after Garibaldi was going to be tricky since everyone knew where Sheridan was, there was little or no clues where Garibaldi went to. I am sure they figured the Shadows had him, but where was the real question and if it was Z'Ha"Dum again, it was a suicide mission. G'Kar got lucky finding any information about where Michael could be, but it had more to do with Bester letting them find him. I am pretty sure everyone realized it was very simple to get Michael back and how weird it was the ship they found him on self-destructed and ejected him. Michael's return was more suspicious then Sheridan getting help from random alien.
                              lotjx
                              Confirmed User
                              Last edited by lotjx; 04-27-2011, 06:39 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trimotor View Post
                                Jonas, Normally Sheridan would try to calmly discuss the matter. He wanted to know why Garibaldi was acting like that and resolve any issues the two might have. Sheridan was confused, not angry. So it makes no sense in the first conversation for him to have lost his temper.
                                When someone you consider your friend, someone you've trusted with your life, suddenly seems to turn on you for no good reason, it's easy to become frustrated and angry. And then it's easy to snap.

                                I've certainly reacted that way myself to lesser offenses.
                                Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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