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Season 5 - Telepaths

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  • #16
    I must admit I didn't enjoy S5 as much as the others, but I loved the arc which covered the fall of Centauri Prime, and seeing Londo's future come true was agony to watch. The interplay between him and G'Kar throughout the Season was also teriffic.

    I would have loved to have seen B5 over 5 years as originally planned, but when S4 was drawing to a close and it was being condensed, it would have been interesting to see them do the following for me:

    Finish it at S4
    Get a guarantee pick up of 2 seasons for Crusade to let it grow
    Chronicle the downfall of Centauri Prime and the Telepath War as either big screen movies or in a series of TV movies.
    I'm a pessimist: that way you're never disappointed but frequently, pleasantly surprised

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    • #17
      Originally posted by FuryPilot View Post
      My theory why Byron wasn't liked: JMS set it up that Zack was interested in Lyta.

      Did the geek get the girl? Nope, the angsty pretty boy did.

      Which rather pisses off geeks world wide.
      That is a really cool little theory. I don't know if you meant it solely as a joke but it really does have truth in it. Zack, like so many, was a really good character and he really did get the bad result most of the time. He was stabbed with needles by Minbari! No really, Byron does seem to be the Fabio of the B5 universe and Zack does show Lyta the most kindness and it really doesn't pay off for him.


      Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair
      No one ever seems to stop and consider that perhaps Byron and the telepaths weren't supposed to be liked.

      What came across to me was that JMS was introducing a group of people with whom I did not instictively have sympathy but who had been placed in a position with which I did, particularly once the "Vorlons creating telepaths" revelation came along.
      I've said that before, the telepaths were not the sympathetic group from "A Race Through Dark Places" but something more aloof. Byron's group didn't want acceptance or to "fit in". They wanted to be themselves, by themselves. That is certainly alienating to the "folks at home". I don't think it was bad writing, just unpoplar writing. But the whole thing about Vorlons causing the telepaths to pop up wasn't really news because of the season 3 finale, unless I was the only one that trusted the Shadows' side of the story. Plus, I don't think Sheridan really spread around or even believed what they told him so it wasn't revealed "in universe".


      I'm afraid this is off topic but as for Hippie, there are 2 images that seem to be attached to that word:
      1. a romanticised image of free people enjoying music and challenging stereotypes and oligarchy
      2. a bunch of lazy people that mooched off of their parents whilst belittling them just so they could lay around and indulge in drugs and other base pleasures under the guise of being "free thinking"

      I could see the 2nd definition as pejoritive, but refrain from stating which opinion I hold.
      Last edited by Marsden; 01-11-2011, 05:26 AM.
      "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
      "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

      "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Marsden View Post
        But the whole thing about Vorlons causing the telepaths to pop up wasn't really news because of the season 3 finale, unless I was the only one that trusted the Shadows' side of the story.
        Absolutely ... I was talking about it being revealed to Byron rather than to the audience. Although I perhaps didn't make that quite as clear as I could have done!

        The Optimist: The glass is half full
        The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
        The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair
          Absolutely ... I was talking about it being revealed to Byron rather than to the audience
          Strangely enough, I just realized I never thought about this reveal from Byron's perspective. It must be quite a blow to find out you're basically a leftover bioweapon. Kind of like that Ikarran war machine realized, in a way. I guess this just hammers home how much Byron wasn't a sympathetic character for me. One of the greatest strengths about the series is how you can feel for G'kar, or Londo, or Sheridan, or the Markabs or just about anybody. They seem to have a real personality and feelings and when something happens you can say to yourself that person is going through something, great acting helped that a lot, too.
          "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
          "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

          "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Marsden View Post
            Strangely enough, I just realized I never thought about this reveal from Byron's perspective. It must be quite a blow to find out you're basically a leftover bioweapon. Kind of like that Ikarran war machine realized, in a way. I guess this just hammers home how much Byron wasn't a sympathetic character for me. One of the greatest strengths about the series is how you can feel for G'kar, or Londo, or Sheridan, or the Markabs or just about anybody. They seem to have a real personality and feelings and when something happens you can say to yourself that person is going through something, great acting helped that a lot, too.
            I think this fits with my complaint that we don't see enough of the telepaths as people; we almost never see Byron from his own perspective! We see G'Kar with Na'Toth, we see Londo with Vir, we know most of these characters in private as well as in public - and think what a difference that makes, especially with Londo. If we had seen Byron not delivering speeches, but having breakfast, talking to his friends, worrying about his choices... then we could feel for him a lot more easily.
            Last edited by Jonas; 01-13-2011, 08:30 AM.
            Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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            • #21
              Here is the truth about hippies

              http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip.../cartmans-plan

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              • #22
                I think it would of made a difference in season 5 if all the "mute" telepath had interaction with each other. It seemed that only a few of them could talk. If the audience were mind readers it might not of mattered since we would of known what they were thinking, lol but the sense of community wasn't there for me. The characters needed more depth and back ground info as individuals.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jonas View Post
                  I think this fits with my complaint that we don't see enough of the telepaths as people; we almost never see Byron from his own perspective! We see G'Kar with Na'Toth, we see Londo with Vir, we know most of these characters in private as well as in public - and think what a difference that makes, especially with Londo. If we had seen Byron not delivering speeches, but having breakfast, talking to his friends, worrying about his choices... then we could feel for him a lot more easily.
                  I've been thinking about it and, I disagree. I think we saw enough of Byron, it's just that he was an asshole.

                  (Sorry Jan)
                  "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
                  "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

                  "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                    (Sorry Jan)
                    Well, darn...DougO forgot to put into the Rules and Guidelines that everybody *must* agree with me. ::sigh:: I guess I'll just have to deal, huh?

                    Jan
                    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                    • #25
                      I just got done re-watching Season 5 and I have to disagree to some points made here. I liked Season 5 mainly for the Centauri arc, the Empire building and the one shot episodes like View from the Gallery or Day of the Dead. If we are talking the weakest season then season 1 is the top of my list since there is no bad B5 season. There are maybe 5 episodes I like in that or where important. Yet, season one didn't have much of an arc besides something bad is happening around them as well as introducing the characters. Season 5 was suffering from too many arcs ie the Drahk, building the Alliance, Telepaths and everyone moving in different directions. The Telepath story could have been done in three episodes instead of wasting half the season. Yet, even with all those episodes dedicated to the telepaths, I still think its a better season then most give it credit. Sleeping in the Light even though filmed in S4 is still considered to be in S5 and to me that trumps all.

                      Bryon is a charismatic leader, yet we never got that vibe. He just seemed to be the one that talked well. Charismatic leaders run the gambit from Hitler to Ghandi to Obama, they inspire good or evil. They attract people to them with their personality. Byron's personality just didn't come off that way. As someone said before, we needed to see him be a fun guy with his people and that never happened. I think if JMS established, he was a visionary type of leader who had a great message, but was a little flat or had no control over his people like a Trotsky then it would have worked out better. G'Kar become that type of leader which I guess is why JMS decided to make Byron the charismatic leader since it would just be a retread. I also think Byron being a jerk to everyone after Sheridan gave him the colony didn't help either. There was a sense of entailment with Bryon which lead to his demise.

                      I also disagree with the community aspect. The telepaths not talking gave them a distinct culture. Sure, its frustrating as fans, but it makes a lot of sense. Bryon's message is all about not confirming and its easier for telepaths to talk with their minds then their mouths. I had zero problem with them acting that way and JMS did his best with showing them as a community on a very limited budget.

                      In all of this, I think a lot of reasons that the telepath storyline is hated comes down to one thing, no resolution. Even with the fall of Centauri Prime, we already saw how that was going to end in War without End. If we had actually gotten the Telepath War instead of hearing about in Crusade or the books even then we don't know the whole story. All we know is Lyta died, the PSI Corp we know was destroyed and there is a new kinder gentler PSI Corp, Bester escaped, Garibaldi got his blocks removed, the ISA interfered and maybe Lennier died. If we had seen all of this then maybe, we would look back on the telepaths and say "Hey, that makes a lot of sense."

                      JMS has stated Byron was the spark for the Telepath War, but its hard to understand the spark if we don't see the flame it produces. I do think he should have scrapped the Soul Hunter movie which was meaningless and pushed for the Telepath War or made Lost Tales, the Telepath War. Yet, I wasn't in the room, so who knows if he did and saw his budget then decided to go with smaller stories. Either way, I do believe if we had seen the flame, Bryon created, we wouldn't be as harsh as we are to the telepath arc even with some of its flaws.

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                      • #26
                        JMS has stated Byron was the spark for the Telepath War, but its hard to understand the spark if we don't see the flame it produces.
                        The flames were seen in "Wheel of Fire", with the bombing of Psi Corps, Lyta as a doomsday weapon, and Garibaldi funneling money into the war effort to help remove Bester's blocks.
                        Last edited by JoeD80; 02-18-2011, 10:00 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lotjx View Post
                          I just got done re-watching Season 5 ...
                          Excellent post. I enjoyed your points, but I think season 1 is better because of the lack of too many archs. Archs are a really important part of B5, but many of the non-arch episodes are just great epidsodes. But an important thing is the whole is more than just the sum of it's parts. You can easily say x is the best season, y is the worst, but they all make one large story.

                          I especially like your point about seeing the final ramifications of Byron. JoeD80 pointed out some results, but I think he would have to agree that they are more "sparks/flames" than the final resolution of the Telepath War, and I liked the Soul Hunter movie but I'd give up all 4 movies if we could have got the Telepath War movie instead.

                          BTW, you realy must get the Centauri Trilogy by Peter David, I really think it's like having half of a "sixth season". I just reread it again and I can't say enough good things about it. I strongly recomend opting for a used 3 in one hard cover as the 3rd book in softcover can easily cost more by itself.
                          "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
                          "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

                          "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thing is B5 is the story of the station and the characters who were on or passing through the station in those years, not the story of everything that happens to everybody ever. The show was always planned as a "life goes on after we close the book" kind of show. To quote Joe's words
                            Originally posted by jms
                            Characters and universe have history before, and history after. We dive in, witness the events of those years, and dive out again at end. Universe goes on.
                            I imagine that the Telepath War took place more on Earth than it did on B5. We can put together pretty well what started the war from the show, and I think it's apparent by Garibaldi appearing in Sleeping in Light who came out on top in the end.

                            Of course I think a Telepath War feature film would have been awesome, but I don't feel that there wasn't resolution in the show.

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                            • #29
                              I really like season 1 - oc its 'slower' than the others but it was meant to. The viewer makes the first steps in a new universe and therefor JMS shows us a lot of aspects besides the main stories. It makes the whole thing more vivid.

                              Before The Lost Tales came out JMS was asked if he'd do the telepath war and he said yes if he knows that this direct to dvd episodes are selling and he can do a whole bunch of them.
                              It didn't work out so let's wait and see what April brings...

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