Discussion about Grey 17

[JoeD80]

I don't buy a space station losing a floor either, military construction projects may have overruns, but not rampant stupidity. People run QC on things.
People run even more QC on things that are in outer space.

They didn't run a lot of QC on Babylon 5 because it was the last attempt, and the EA were weary of re-building the Babylon project at that point since their last attempt disappeared shortly after it was finished. They were bound to cut corners on #5. The EA didn't even fund the whole thing and they had to get the Centauri and Minbari to help; Babylon 4 was the last station that was fully funded and inspected by the EA.

So what are we supposed to believe, that whoever runs periodic maintenance on everything when it comes to Gray section doesn't get curious when an entire level/floor is missing? Right.

That wasn't the only thing wrong with Grey sector. It was the haunted area of the station ("Knives") and probably those maintenance workers that did think to report a missing level mysteriously disappeared. Also level #18 was numbered #17.

[NotKosh]

G17 is one of my favorite episodes, for the B plot. I just skip past the G17 garbage.

I don't buy a space station losing a floor either, military construction projects may have overruns, but not rampant stupidity. People run QC on things.
People run even more QC on things that are in outer space.

So what are we supposed to believe, that whoever runs periodic maintenance on everything when it comes to Gray section doesn't get curious when an entire level/floor is missing? Right.

[Marsden]

I don't know why he didn't shoot it anyway, either. Probably stuff about being "responsible" and not shooting up everything.


I know JMS didn't like this one, but saying you don't like something you made yourself and having some dopey poster say it's bad are two different things.

[Doom Shepherd]

All I know is I hate dummies so much that, in Garibaldi's place, I might have shot the thing before it had finished talking.

[Jan]

The ôleaderö or at least talker of the cult is played by Robert Englund, a great choice for the part and he does his best with the material. I think part of the point is that we shouldnÆt like it, it is stupid, thatÆs the point. We shouldnÆt have a good feeling about these nuts, but it does leave you with a bad taste the firmly plants the whole episode in the bad column.

I tend to disagree with this. I don't think Robert Englund did well at all, personally. He played the leader/spokesperson as rather stoned and it didn't do anything for me at all. The way he hunched over and cringed certainly didn't lend anything toward making you believe that he was anybody who could attract followers. Played properly, I think his words would have echoed back to when Delenn and Lennier talked about their beliefs to Brother Edward. That would have been interesting since they were practically identical, at least on the surface.

I thought the dummy reminded me of the Chucky doll from the ChildÆs Play franchise and was suitably spooky.

That was something else I didn't care for but that may be because I'm not a fan of horror. To me the dummy was just silly-looking and made me less likely to take the cultists seriously.

The fact that they were able to hide a level goes back to the shoddy construction of B5 and the fact the place is just that big, itÆs hard to keep track of it all.

I've heard lots of people say that that was unbelievable but I've seen a building (in HOuston, years back. It's long torn down) where the floors were mis-numbered and a floor was skipped. And no, it wasn't the standard 13th floor, it was the 8th. It just would have been too big a bother to re-number all of the floors and apartments so they left it.

I hope JMS doesnÆt ever read this, heÆll probably want to feed me to the Zarg.

Nah, this is one that he wouldn't mind seeing parts of it fall off a pier and never surface again. But as fantastic as the Delenn/Neroon/Marcus segments are, I don't think he has anything to apologize for.

Jan

[JoeD80]

I like this whole episode, but then I also like Infection

The Zarg was terrible. Man in a rubber suit crap, almost certainly the worst effect in B5 history. I thought the CGI Nakaleen Feeder was much more effective, even though it had the lack of substance that bad CGI has, it was better than the Zarg.

Joe pointed out in the script book that he specifically wrote in the script that the Zarg was only to be seen in shadows and darkness to keep the creepy effect and we weren't ever supposed to see him with such a clear view as we did.

I hope JMS doesnÆt ever read this, heÆll probably want to feed me to the Zarg.

It's one of the episodes Joe didn't really like either.

[babylonlurker]

Why? I just watched it again on my way through disc 5 of the 3rd season and it impressed me how much there is to like in here, even though the whole thing together is on just about everyone's short list for "bad" episode.

I'm going to cut this into little pieces, start with good and switch to not good and then sum it up. If it's too choppy, sorry.

...

I think I beat this horse to death.

I hope JMS doesnÆt ever read this, heÆll probably want to feed me to the Zarg.

Nicely done Marsden, I always watch that episode for the Neroon/Delenn and Marcus/Lennier stuff, it is just great.

And Neroon's resolution later of the Minbari civil war : Just great, potent stuff.

And, of course the final meeting of Neroon and Marcus this episode : Priceless !

[Marsden]

Why? I just watched it again on my way through disc 5 of the 3rd season and it impressed me how much there is to like in here, even though the whole thing together is on just about everyone's short list for "bad" episode.

I'm going to cut this into little pieces, start with good and switch to not good and then sum it up. If it's too choppy, sorry.


First, and for me at least, most about it is Neroon is in it. He is one of the best supporting characters ever in any show/movie I've ever seen. I'm sure this is in no small part to John Vickery, but I have to give at least equal if not more credit to JMS. Neroon isn't in very many episodes, but every one he is in he delivers a very relevant/important to the plot/arc dialogue. (I'll back up a bit and say his first appearance wasn't the greatest, in Legacies, but it does start to establish that Jeff is the bridge between Mimbari and Humans.) In Grey 17, Neroon appears to Delenn and basically lays everything out for her. Now, for most people, me included, the first time (or first several) you can just ignore his point of veiw because we(at home) know that Delenn is not a egomaniac or a megalomaniac zelot that is trying to acquire more power to herself, one of these reasons we know is the episode "Comes the Inquisitor" but Neroon couldn't know that. Listen to the man and give him the benefit of the doubt and his argument is perfectly reasonable and logical. To put it in a different context, could you imagine taking a leader at total face value if the basis of their decisions is a 1000 year old prophecy? More credit to JMS, Neroon is, basically, a general, how many different movies/shows do we see where an antagonist is a nearly mindless general with their own rediculous agenda? Dances with Smurfs comes to mind, among many others, lazy script writing and characterization, actually a caricature rather than a character, either for the writer to knock the military or forward a personal view or just lack of talent/laziness. Neroon is thoughtful and his motivations absolutely reasonable, even if he's dead wrong. The fact later on he almost single handedly (with Delenn) resolves the Mimbari civil war and how he does is a great testimony of his true intentions. But we don't know that yet and so it needs repeat veiwing to really appreaciate this.


I don't think anyone thinks the whole part of the episode surrounding Delenn's installation and Neroon's challenge deflected by Lennier via Marcus is the problem that gets this on the bad list. The fight itself is really well done. Neroon's revelation of his feelings and the respect he feels for Marcus at the end is a truly great moment. Marcus's response as well. Backing up a bit, when Neroon intrudes on the ceremony it's very powerful. You really don't know if Marcus is dead or not, if Neroon is going to attempt to disrupt the ceremony, possible even attempt to kill Delenn right there to prevent her from becoming installed. The fact that he is the one that actually does install her is really well done. The regret Neroon has because of the beating Marcus took and his realization that the rangers wouldn't follow him like they would Delenn is very well played.

Off of Neroon, (finally) Lennier and Marcus's exchange about how he promised not to tell Sheridan but could tell Marcus after a lot strange logic and loopholes is well done, especially the look of realization on Marcus’s face when he finally gets what Lennier is dancing around. Bill Mumy and Jason Carter never disappoint, they are certainly great here.

Another well done scene is when John asks Delenn about her parents. For me, it’s very a touching scene when Delenn talks about her father because my daughter (who is now 5 &#189 is getting a bit heavy to hold for an hour straight in church. I don’t put her on my shoulders, but it’s about the same. I don’t think we are to the point that Delenn mentions, but it’s coming, and as I watch this she’s bigger each time and it just reinforces the fact I’m not going to be able to hold her someday. JMS knows how to pull on the old heartstrings.

Now, to the other plot. The bad one. Maybe bad is not a good way to put it, unfortunate maybe. I can’t fault Jerry Doyle’s acting throughout, he plays it completely straight and well done. I particularly like the final “tying up” scene between Garibaldi and Sheridan. “Your day? How about my day?”
The establishing scene with Zack showing the handgun and bullets and Garibaldi’s excuse about having them are there, at least. It’s not as if he just pulls bullets out of nowhere, but it’s not a great help.
The “leader” or at least talker of the cult is played by Robert Englund, a great choice for the part and he does his best with the material. I think part of the point is that we shouldn’t like it, it is stupid, that’s the point. We shouldn’t have a good feeling about these nuts, but it does leave you with a bad taste the firmly plants the whole episode in the bad column.
I thought the dummy reminded me of the Chucky doll from the Child’s Play franchise and was suitably spooky.
The fact that they were able to hide a level goes back to the shoddy construction of B5 and the fact the place is just that big, it’s hard to keep track of it all.

The Zarg was terrible. Man in a rubber suit crap, almost certainly the worst effect in B5 history. I thought the CGI Nakaleen Feeder was much more effective, even though it had the lack of substance that bad CGI has, it was better than the Zarg.
The bullets. Or more specifically how they are used is very problematic. I mentioned in the “Huh?” thread that there are such a thing as zip guns that are basically a pipe with a nail that shoots the bullet, if it doesn’t kill you. This doesn’t even qualify for that. I didn’t think a steam pipe would be that easy to break! He uses a rag. At least Jerry plays at it being hot, what’s he going to do, walk off the set? It’s bad. The way the bullets shoot out one at a time is terrible. Them missing until the last one is even worse, and finally the one hit doing the job is the worst. I think if they all blew out at once, like they probably should have, they could have had a cluster of them hit the monster and blow a piece out of him from 5 bullets hitting at once it would have been better. Garibaldi tricking it into an airlock and blowing it out into space would have been better, maybe using Jerimiah as bait, ha.
Even though this scene is so bad, I can still complement Jerry and Robert’s acting in it.
(not exact quotes) “If you’re ready to meet the universe why aren’t you over there with that thing!” (the Zarg) “Perhaps I’m not transcendent enough!”

Maybe if the title was The Instalation of Delenn, or something not so literal that refers to that plot it wouldn't reinforce the bad plot as ascendant over the good plot.

I think I beat this horse to death.

I hope JMS doesn’t ever read this, he’ll probably want to feed me to the Zarg.