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**NotKosh** · 08-04-2004, 05:39 PM

Yes.

Note in Season One, the episode where the Minbari corpse is missing. Neroon says to Sinclair "You speak like a Minbari".

This was in no small part a consequence of Sinclair's (religious) Jesuit upbringing.

**Jan** · 08-04-2004, 05:41 PM

Hi, Lightstorm!

Oh, darn! A new person to discuss my all-time favorite show with. Life is rough....

1) Do we know if it was always Joe's intention to have Jeff Sinclair become Valen?

My opinion is that yes, he did. Now as for *when* he planned for it to happen, that's been the subject of heated debate for years!

2) John Sheridan - In the marvelous season-by-season books by Jane Killick, Joe states that even if M O'H had continued on the show, a Sheridan (or Sheriden-like) character would have to have been introduced. Why?

As I recall, the problem was that since Sinclair had such major ties with the Minbari, it would have been stretching credulty for him to have had a Shadow connection as well which is what necessitated the Sheridan character. Unfortunately, as the Shadow conflict was ramping up, that would have left Sinclair as a RE-actor not a focus of the action.

3) The Vorlons - Are they energy creatures or what?

<kinda ducking this one> How would we know? The Vorlons have 'programmed' us to react to them a certain way so how can we trust our senses?

**Jan** · 08-04-2004, 05:48 PM

Oops, posted too fast...

4) Remembering time flashes from WWE - From BABYLON SQUARED to WAR WITHOUT END I & II, everyone remembers their time flashes.

Are you familiar with the Lurker's Guide? Check out: Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5

JMS' posts about it are there but there's *always* room for discussion!

Thanks in advance folks!

Ah, but now you have to pay the price! You have to tell us how you discovered B5 and what caused you to get hooked and who your favorite character is and what your favorite storyline is.... C'mon, pony up!

Jan

**bakana** · 08-04-2004, 06:55 PM

or the part about Emperor Londo's keeper and how Londo has to put it to sleep with alcohol -

Sheridan, at that point, had No Idea what a Keeper was. The Drakh hadn't even been introduced.

Plus, he latched on the the "do not go to Zha'ha'dum" line and thought that, by doing so, he could Change that future.

And, suspecting that there was something Alive inside a sealed metal container would have been too paranoid even for Sheridan at that point.
Not knowing that the Drakh had taken over Centauri Prime,
Sheridan had no reason to think Londo was doing anything except giving away a "trinket".
Londo, himself, was just not that sort of person.
If Londo wanted to harm Sheridan, he'd have done it Openly, and Sheridan knew that.
Besides, Seridan and Delenn had invited Londo to visit because, in spite of everything, they felt that he'd become a Friend.

Both Sheridan and Delenn understood that many of Londo's "public" statements were pure politics.
And, because of the Time Flashes they both also knew that, at some time in the future, he would save their lives.
So, they trusted him. Why not?
Who would expect that the Centauri Emperor would be Taking orders instead of giving them?

**CRONAN** · 08-04-2004, 06:57 PM

2) John Sheridan - In the marvelous season-by-season books by Jane Killick, Joe states that even if M O'H had continued on the show, a Sheridan (or Sheriden-like) character would have to have been introduced. Why? He says that there would be the need to replace Sinclair (a career soldier, veteran, war hero and self sacrificing leader) with......what? A career soldier, veteran, war hero and self sacrificing leader. Big difference! Bar the name change, they could be the same person.

***************************************

A few jms posts that adress this point:

This to Ken Schroder...a very good analysis of the situation re:
Sinclair/Sheridan. One other element, which will become clearer with
the passage of time, is that Sinclair's main tie was to the Minbari
storyline, which though not *resolved* per se in "Points," gets pushed
back as the Shadowmen story advances. So his impact on that storyline
would have been second-hand. Sheridan, on the other hand, has a direct
tie-in to this latter storyline, though he does not know it yet. Also,
there are some military aspects coming that only someone commanding a
starship recently, and working with some other aspects of the military,
would have access to, and that is also something Sheridan brings to the
story.

jms
---------------

For what it's worth, Sheridan is neither a "space cowboy" nor a
"gung ho type." This description has nothing to do with the character,
and I'm not quite sure where you got this. Certainly I never said or
implied it.

Captain John Sheridan is a war hero, of sorts; he squeaked out the
only real victory of the Earth/Minbari War. (Which means the Minbari
don't generally like him a lot.) He did what he did because that's his
job. He's a professional soldier. For the last two years, he's been
commanding the Agamemmnon, a high-visibility Earthforce starship on deep
patrol. As such, he has had to learn to work with a number of different
races and species.

In some ways, his character is somewhat more well-rounded than was
the case with Sinclair, over whom a general sense of doom often seemed to
hang. Sheridan is often very thoughtful and introspective; at other
times, he can be just a bit eccentric; he leads by respecting those who
work under him, and giving them room to grow; like any career officer, he
HATES the bureaucracy with a passion, and this is the one thing that can
drive him nuts; he knows that commanding B5 is a great opportunity, but
he also knows that his presence brings certain complications with it, and
he's very ambivilant about that aspect; he's the son of a diplomatic envoy
who disappeared on his 21st birthday, running off to see (of all things)
the new Dali Lama being installed; he has a very easygoing manner, and a
great sense of humor. He quickly re-forms a friendship with Ivanova, for
whom he has great respect and professional admiration. (For a time she
served under him at Io.)

He is, actually, a fascinating and intriguing character with a lot
of different shadings...none of which have *anything* to do with being a
"space cowboy" or "gung-ho type."

When it was announced that Sinclair would
be STAYING with the show, after the pilot, a number of folks said this
was bad, he was wooden, he stunk, get him off...and ended up being very
enamored of him. My only reply now about Bruce...give him, and me, a
chance. I genuinely think you will like what you see a *lot*.

In the course of the first season, Ivanova, Garibaldi, G'Kar, Londo,
Delenn, others...they've exploded into strong characters. You need an
equally strong character designed to hold his own, and be memorable, in
that august company. Sheridan was designed knowing we had a much
elevated playing field around the character.

Obviously, clearly, and irrefutably, an actor brings a *lot* to any
role. No question. But it tends to begin with what is created. I've seen
it said here, repeatedly, that none of the characters are uninteresting;
they all have lives, and agendas, that make them fascinating to watch:
Londo, Morden, G'Kar, Delenn, Garibaldi, Ivanova...what those characters
are came out of my head, in terms of who they are, what they say, what they
believe, where they came from and where they're going. Why would I invent
a new character that was any less involving, or interesting, o
multifaceted? Particularly knowing that he's going to be a central
character?

Speaking as someone who's been in fandom a long, long time, I know
there is always a tendency for panic, to assume the apocalypse is upon
us, that something is never going to be the same again. I heard this after
the Enterprise was destroyed in "The Search for Spock." I've heard this
a lot over the years. It's generally over-reaction and worry before anyone
has even seen a frame of film.

Bottom line being...wait and see, then judge. I've tried very hard
not to let you down, and I think so far I haven't done so...I have no
intention of starting now. Bruce is doing an absolutely *brilliant* job
as Captain Sheridan, bringing a thoughtfulness and intensity and
charm and intensity to the part that is a joy to behold. Give him a
chance.

Okay, alternate-universe time to answer your question....

"What if Sinclair had not left Babylon 5?" (Isn't this kinda like
the Marvel What If? comics..."What If Dr. Blake's Nurse Had Been The One
to Find Thor's Hammer?")

The differences would be more noticeable in the later episodes of
this season, rather than the first batch, which are still dealing in
large measure with the after-effects of the season finale.

So the first few episodes would have been somewhat the same in some
ways to what is there with Sheridan. The problem that I had was that he
was becoming (and would have become) mainly a problem-solver character;
there's a squabble or a problem between other characters who are rising in
profile (G'Kar, Londo, Delenn, etc.), and he solves the problem in some
way. These, to me, were the least interesting episodes of our prior
season.

It would've been necessary to bring in another character with a
direct connection to the shadowmen, since Sinclair's main connection is
to the Minbari, and it would've been straining credulity to plug him too
much into THAT story as well...hero of the line, missing 24 hours, Minbari
soul, AND a tie to the Shadowmen...c'mon, what else does he do, fly under
his own power?

Had he stayed, the Shadowman tie probably would've gone to either
Keffer or Garibaldi. Which, again, further removes Sinclair from the
main thrust of the story. He would have stayed on as more of an observer of other people *acting*, while he *reacted*.

I can't get too specific otherwise without revealing, by contrast,
what's going to happen later on this season. Suffice to say this: watch
the show up to and through "The Coming of Shadows," "All Alone in the
Night," "Acts of Sacrifice," and "Hunter, Prey." (That's about episode
#13.) You can then ask the question again, but I have a real suspicion
that once you've seen those episodes, and what Sheridan does, you won't
NEED to ask, because you'll see how he fits into the overall story in a
very specific fashion with is 180-degrees different than Sinclair.

**bakana** · 08-04-2004, 07:14 PM

Joe states that even if M O'H had continued on the show, a Sheridan (or Sheriden-like) character would have to have been introduced.

You see the two as having the same personality characteristics.

No so. Sinclair was a naturaly charismatic leader, true. But he was also suffering from a massive load of Survivor Guilt.
And had a strong tendency to lead from In Front.
In essence, Sinclair was looking for something worth Dying For.

(Just like a few other characters, jms used this theme several times during the series.)
Sinclair's leadership style was simple:
He said Follow Me! and headed out, never looking back because he Knew that he was being Followed .

Sinclair's history with Garibaldi demonstrated this particularly well.
When Sinclair & Garibaldi first met, Garibaldi was a Drunk.
Sinclair trusted him Anyway.
He assumed the Best about Garibaldi and Garibaldi wasn't willing to disappoint him.

(This episode was covered in one of the Comic Series, BTW.
If you didn't know about them, it's Just One More Thing you'll have to track down.

Sheridan, OTOH, was more of a Manager/Politician in leadership style.
Sheridan "led" by pushing people's hot buttons and by doing things that caused people to believe they Owed him.

You saw that when he first came aboard B-5.
He immediately Promoted Ivanova.
She more than deserved it. That didn't mean she would have Gotten it.
In fact, under Sinclair, she wouldn't have because Sinclair was only one rank higher that she was.
Sinclair was a Commander holding down an Admiral's job.

(Which is why so many Earthforce people tried to mess Sinclair up during the first season.
They resented the fact that he got the job and would make sure it was a cold day in hell before he got a promotion.)

Sheridan then went out of his way to find out what made Mr. Garibaldi "tick".
He could just as easily found and installed another chief of security, but Garibaldi's files showed him to be a valuable asset.

So:

Charismatic, self sacrificing leader ==> Valen.

Politician/ Manager ==> President Sheridan

**Andrew_Swallow** · 08-04-2004, 09:28 PM

I suspect that the early departure of Sinclair caused the loss of Babylon 4's arc.

There may have been a Shadow War battle that required both Babylon 4 and 5 to fight it.

At the end of the Shadow War Valen may have taken Babylon 4 back into the past and General Sheridan used Babylon 5 to fight President Clarke.

Or Babylon 5 was destroyed, so Babylon 4 was brought in to win the wars.

These possible arcs have gone so we will never know.

**CRONAN** · 08-04-2004, 10:21 PM

Charismatic, self sacrificing leader ==> Valen.
-----------------------------------

Sinclair charismatic? Charismatic!? You've got to be friggin kidding me (Marcus has more charisma in his little pinky finger). Sinclair is many things, but charismatic ain't one of 'em. Sorry kid.

**Towelmaster** · 08-05-2004, 04:59 AM

Re: Sinclair as Valen....When?

Originally posted by LightStorm
1) Do we know if it was always Joe's intention to have Jeff Sinclair become Valen? There is a great deal made of the "Minbari-not-born-of-Minbari" idea but we don't actually hear these words until the 'Gethsemane' episode. I am fairly sure (though I could be wrong) that I read that Michael O'Hare was more-or-less shoved out of the show. If he had stayed, where would this have paced the 'WWE' two parter in the overall arc?

JMS has stated several times that he sat down with Doug Netter and Michael O' Hare after the first season to discuss the way things were going. Due to those talks Sinclair was replaced by Sheridan. According to JMS this was not a case of 'shoving somebody out of the airlock' but a decision that was made in consultation with Michael O' Hare. He also reserved a special postition for Sinclair so he could return later on(and how!

)

The last few weeks I have actually read ALL the usenet-postings by JMS that you can find from the frontpage if this site and that's were I got my info. O.K. So there are a few more than 17.000 postings there so I guess you'll have to read fast...

Greetz,

TM.

**Jan** · 08-05-2004, 05:16 AM

Re: Re: Sinclair as Valen....When?

Originally posted by Towelmaster
The last few weeks I have actually read ALL the usenet-postings by JMS that you can find from the frontpage if this site and that's were I got my info. O.K. So there are a few more than 17.000 postings there so I guess you'll have to read fast...

Yeah, but remember you run into those patches where posts are duplicated which speeds things up.

I've done it too. It helps when I want to look things up here because I'm likely to have an idea of how JMS phrased something.

Jan

**grumbler** · 08-05-2004, 08:30 AM

Re: Sinclair as Valen....When?

Originally posted by LightStorm
1) Do we know if it was always Joe's intention to have Jeff Sinclair become Valen? There is a great deal made of the "Minbari-not-born-of-Minbari" idea but we don't actually hear these words until the 'Gethsemane' episode. I am fairly sure (though I could be wrong) that I read that Michael O'Hare was more-or-less shoved out of the show. If he had stayed, where would this have paced the 'WWE' two parter in the overall arc?

This, as noted before, is the subject of controvery. My conclusion is that that the second half of WWE would have been the series finale if JMS's original vision had been followed - Sinclair would have been forced to abandon his love (at that point), Delenn, in order to fulfill his duty as Valen.

2) John Sheridan - In the marvelous season-by-season books by Jane Killick, Joe states that even if M O'H had continued on the show, a Sheridan (or Sheriden-like) character would have to have been introduced. Why? He says that there would be the need to replace Sinclair (a career soldier, veteran, war hero and self sacrificing leader) with......what? A career soldier, veteran, war hero and self sacrificing leader. Big difference! Bar the name change, they could be the same person.

To understand the change to Sheridan, you have to read between the lines a bit, IMO. There were two issues here, I think. The first was that Michael O'Hare didn't fit into TV series acting as well as he had hoped (as I read between the lines of the several Filmforce interviews). He was a stage actor, used to much more rehersal than a tightly-budgetted TV show could afford him. By the end of season one he was frazzled and welcomed the chance to get out while the getting was good.

The second was that Sinclair was simply too wise from the get-go. He didn't have a lot of room for charactor growth because JMS had started him out too far along the road to self-understanding. JMS had written himself into a corner, so to speak, and welcomed the chance to start over with a charactor he could write more easily.

So, to answer the unstated question ("did JMS intend for Sinclair to do all the Sinclair stuff and all the Sheridan stuff?") I would say, yes he did, at the start. As time passed and JMS learned what did and didn't work in the story arc, he saw his mistaken assumptions and worked to change them. One of the changes was to seperate the man with the whole in his mind from the man who would die at Z'Ha'Dum.

3) The Vorlons - Are they energy creatures or what? Again I seem to recall reading somewhere Joe stating that they are chrystaline bodied . However, in the early 4th season, they look like energised jellyfish - not corporeal in any real sense of the word. But there is that line refering to this body type in the pilot movie, but it is a non-specific sentence within the film - to all intents and purposes it could be refering to ANY test results Dr. Kyle could be waiting for....HELP!

There is enough physical form to be poisoned and to need to open the encounter suit to get out, but that is about the limit of what we know about their physical form other that that it is tenous enough to pass through the station without causing critical damage.

4) Remembering time flashes from WWE - From BABYLON SQUARED to WAR WITHOUT END I & II, everyone remembers their time flashes. Why was it that Sheridan does not remember the part of the time flash that tells him that he will have a son, or the part about Emperor Londo's keeper and how Londo has to put it to sleep with alcohol - then at the tail-end of the 5th season, failing totally to connect those clues even with Londo's secrect 'gift' and the desire for strong alcohol in the same sentence? But he DOES remember the 'Do not go to Z'Ha'Dum" part from Delenn?

remember how insistant she was on him remembering the line? hat helped. He was otherwise quite groggy throughout (his body had been beaten, remember) and, as bakana pointed out, he thoguht he had changed that future by going to Z'Ha'Dum.

**CRONAN** · 08-05-2004, 09:44 AM

Yeah, the thing thats always bothered me about Sinclair is that the acting very closely resembled that of the ancient, ''classic'' hollywood. Every time I watch him its like the 50s all over again.

::shivers::

**bakana** · 08-05-2004, 12:38 PM

Sinclair is that the acting very closely resembled that of the ancient, ''classic'' hollywood.

I have an advantage of sorts in this discussion of Sinclair: I've actually Met Michael O'Hare.

Most of the actors JMS chose for B-5 because their own personalities or mannerisms complemented the character they were portraying.

Jerry Doyle and Garibaldi have a Lot in common.
Vir, Ditto.
Mira and Delenn, also.

O'Hare, OTOH, is totally Different from Sinclair. O'Hare is a warm, Kind, thoroughly People oriented person.
Sinclair was played as a man who has lost so many friends, he's almost afraid to make more.

O'Hare said he based his portrayal of Sinclair on Military Officers he grew up with.
I worked for several Commanding Officers in the Navy who were very much like Sinclair. He Nailed the character type.
And, yes. As a Military Officer, men Would have followed Sinclair.
Maybe Charismatic isn't the right word. Or maybe you have no Military experience. I don't know.
I do know that his acting in that part was brilliant.

As far as Why O'Hare left, I believe part of it was that he was having health problems.
I know the time I saw him at a Con, he was obviously very sick.
He was doing a panel. Q&A. Handled it brilliantly. As I said above, a very warm, friendly, Likeable man.
It wasn't until the panel was over and he was leaving that I realized how sick he was. Sitting down, his hands trembled a bit, but I didn't really pay attention.
When he was Walking, though, he looked like he might Fall Down at any moment. He was having difficulty walking.
But, it was one of those situations where you could also Tell that he was NOT going to accept any help.

I never saw any mention of him as a Convention Guest after that one.
Although I did see him on a Law & Order episode a year or so later. Don't know When it was actually filmed.

**Capt.Montoya** · 08-05-2004, 12:48 PM

1) Some swear Sinclair was intended to be the main character for the whole five seasons, JMS denies it. But the fact that he had to be careful with his statements, sometimes coy, sometimes even misleading, gives fodder to those that think Sheridan was not part of the original outline. At the beginning all the hints JMS gave for where the series would go mentioned only Sinclair, as if he would always be the main character, but I do actually believe Joe realized early on that Sinclair couldn't be the focus of the whole story, even if his very first draft only had Sinclair by the time the series went into production that had changed. But he couldn't say that publicly... From some of JMS posts I get the impresion he would have introduced Sheridan slowly through season 2. If you read the above quotes of JMS posts you'll realize why that would have been awkward from the story telling perspective, and even unfair to Michael O'Hare by relegating him slowly but surely to a supporting role.
Any gossip about O'Hare being unsatisfied with this and having being pushed out is only gossip.
There are many JMS posts related to that:

JMSNews

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-14569