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When did Kosh go into Sheridan?

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  • bakana
    replied
    The Control is built into Lyta herself.

    She has Vorlon Programming in her Brain that she doesn't have conscious access to.

    If This happens, do This!

    The fact that she gets better, more conscious control of her abilities when she's threatened is only to be expected.
    There, she's reacting to situations the Vorlons knew they couldn't predict.
    I'm sure they didn't go to all the trouble to create Dark Lyta just to have her killed because she couldn't defend herself.

    Actually, I was surprized at how Ineffectual the Vorlon programming was in the Third Space incident.
    Lyta's growing powers might be the Vorlon programming making even More adjustments in response to that.
    The Vorlon's may have intended her to gain the higher abilities much more slowly so that she could learn to use them better.
    But, the programming was caught off guard by circumstances and needed more time to make adjustments.

    Then, when she was imprisoned, it made More adjustments.

    What Lyta may have is the Vorlon equivalent of the Technomage implants.
    After all, the Vorlon Tech is Alive. It would need time to build or expand the power of any implants that allow her to do what she does...

    Those implants may be programmed to Protect Lyta under certain circumstances, whether she approves of what they do or not.

    From the Vorlon POV, if Lyta kills a few hundred people to keep her freedom, well, too bad.
    Compared to the numbers that might be killed by things like the Thirdspace Aliens that she's supposed to guard against, a few hundred lives might just not matter at all to a million year old Vorlon...

    So, sending her off with G'Kar may have been the smartest thing ever done on B-5.
    Last edited by bakana; 08-13-2004, 11:50 AM.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    The Vorlons created a human weapon way too powerful, without thinking what might happen when they weren't there to control her... there is room for a TMoV project there.
    The Vorlons did produce a control for Lyta, his name is Sheridan. The one man trained to resist her.

    Working the other way. I suspect that Lyta has been programmed to kill Sheridan if he gos out of control.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    Originally posted by NotKosh
    Except a stumble and recovery might have resulted in the same forces.
    True... but she might have also been holding the cuffs together with her mental power, after slowly mentallymanipulating them to break appart.

    To be honest: I actually believe that Lyta's enhancements were such that she would have been able to break the cuffs instantaneously... and she was just starting to cut loose and explore the limits of her powers.
    I haven't read the short story set on the time period she is travelling with G'Kar, I don't know if it features further control and expansion of her powers.
    Knowing JMS I wouldn't expect him to spring upon us a Lyta suddenly much more powerful than what we saw in TMoS or other future B5 projects, unless the movie itself features that into the exposition/explanation of Lyta.

    The Vorlons created a human weapon way too powerful, without thinking what might happen when they weren't there to control her... there is room for a TMoV project there.

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  • NotKosh
    replied
    Except a stumble and recovery might have resulted in the same forces.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    I guess what happened to the handcuffs would depend on whether Lyta's telekinetic powers allowed her to deform objects, in addition to moving them.
    If she can deform rivets (or other materials) there's no need to do any molecular restructuring...

    Think of a telekinetic mind as a hand: you can use it to grab, push... but also to apply pressure and squeeze.
    Typically telekinesis is portrayed as only moving objects, but with Lyta's modifications she may have been capable of other manipulations.

    It was also a matter of time... we don't know when she started to deform the cuffs to break free (sort of like using "mental plyers" to weaken the rivets while no one was watching), we only saw that at the proper moment she showed she could get free. At that moment she may have already made enough manipulations that all it took was a shake for the cuffs to fall appart.

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  • bakana
    replied
    Or just unscrewed the bolts holding the handcuffs together.
    Last time I held a pair of handcuffs, they were put together with Rivets and Welds.
    You don't want something a prisoner can take apart...

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by bakana
    Pieces would imply that she had some way to create Metal
    Or just unscrewed the bolts holding the handcuffs together.

    Lyta may also be able to cut metal.

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  • bakana
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    <<e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.>>

    Telekinesis?



    Yes and no. Yes for the cuffs. The camera looked more like a mental blast that effected the target like an energy hit.

    Or, maybe she just twisted all the wires together ??

    More Telekinesis.

    Although, to me, the handcuffs looked like more than that.
    I'd have to rewatch the episode, but I thought it looked like they fell to the ground in Pieces, not just fell open...

    Pieces would imply that she had some way to create Metal Fatigue in hardened, bolt cutter resistant steel.
    Couple possibilities there:
    A mental ability that affects metal on the molecular level. (Jason Ironheart, you've got Competition.)
    She's carrying around some Vorlon tech that can do the same...

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  • NotKosh
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    <<e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.>>

    Telekinesis?
    Yes and no. Yes for the cuffs. The camera looked more like a mental blast that effected the target like an energy hit.

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  • bakana
    replied
    Among other things, Sheridan did NOT die on Z'ha'dum.

    Lorien very clearly stated that he had (Just Barely ) manaaged to keep Sheridan Alive.

    "What if I die?"
    "I can not create life, but I can breathe on the remaining embers.. It may not work."
    "But I can hope."
    "Hope is all we have."

    Lorien & Sheridan in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"

    I did all I could to help him, but I can not create life, only the universe can do that.
    I can extend, enhance, there is no magic, nothing spiritual about it, only the application of energies, healing and rebuilding cells."

    Lorien to Delenn in Babylon 5:"Falling Toward Apotheosis"
    And Kosh wasn't issuing Prophesy.
    He based his statement on a Million Years of History.
    No enemy of the Shadows had survived going to Z'ha'dum in that entire time, not even a Vorlon.
    The Idea that Sheridan could survive was not even good for a Laugh.

    If Kosh had been a Prophet, he'd have known that Lorien was about to do something that Lorien hadn't done in even More eons: Interfere in the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    prophecy

    If I answer to your argument you will reply...

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Nope, I don't think Kosh was saying "if you go to Z'Ha"Dum you will almost certainly die." He was saying that Sheridan would die, flat out.

    I have no idea whether Vorlons in general were capable of this kind of prophecy, but Kosh's statement was as clear an example of prophecy as we saw.

    Kosh kinda, sorta, aborted his own prophecy by placing enough of himself in Sheridan to guide him along his path to Lorien. However, in the end Sheridan did die - just under the circumstance that allowed him to return.

    But we also have to remember that Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum, as he had all along planned, in order to die and take a lot of Shadows with him. He never wavered from his promise in "In the Shadow...":

    "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die."

    "Then I die. But I will not go down easily, and I will not go down alone. You will teach me?"

    (pause)

    "Yes."

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    The actual implicit assumption in what you quote of my post is precisely that Kosh didn't really know what would happen, he was making a "prediction" based on what he knew of Sheridan and the Shadows...
    Or, in other words, I agree with your reasoning bakana, I only didn't make it explicit in my prior post. I also tend to reject any speculation that is based on assigning the Vorlons mystical future telling abilities.
    You forgot to quote this part:
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya

    Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.
    You're right, it doesn't take that much to predict that Sheridan would die at Z'ha'dum, but in the show only Kosh really thought about it...

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  • bakana
    replied
    From this I assume the original plan was that Kosh would have travelled with Sheridan (inside him?) to Z'ha'dum and flown with him as he fell, with Kosh dying in the process and Sheridan almost dying, Lorien entering there in about the same way. But Kosh would not have been entirely sure that Sheridan could survive, thus he warned him of the most likely outcome: you will die...

    Kosh would likely have known that Lorien would be in Z'ha'dum to help after the fall, but there were many "what ifs" before that moment. What if the Shadows didn't try to convince Sheridan but kill him from the beginning? What if Sheridan had not concealed the PPG gun that allowed him to escape? What if he had taken a wrong turn and not gotten to the pit to jump in time?
    Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.
    There is an assumption in this line of reasoning that Kosh knew the Future.

    Unlikely. The prediction that, "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die." was based on the fact that the Shadows did not tolerate "Tourists".
    And that the Shadows would turn Anyone foolish enough to land on Z'ha'dum into a servant the same way they did Anna and Morden.
    Kosh, knowing that Sheridan was not likely to agree to serve willingly the way Morden did,
    assumed that Sheridan would end up in the Spare Parts Bin

    It doesn't take any great mental abilites at all to predict that:
    "If you junp in front of a moving Freight Train, You Will Die".

    Last edited by bakana; 08-10-2004, 12:19 PM.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    Some things to remember:

    JMS had not originally planned for Kosh to die in Interludes & Examinations... that is obvious from several of his comments. Check the Lurker's Guide for I&E for a quick view of some.

    This is why Kosh's reply to Sheridan about dying at Z'ha'dum was "Yes, now."
    Just like Sheridan, we didn't understand then, but we did later...

    From this I assume the original plan was that Kosh would have travelled with Sheridan (inside him?) to Z'ha'dum and flown with him as he fell, with Kosh dying in the process and Sheridan almost dying, Lorien entering there in about the same way. But Kosh would not have been entirely sure that Sheridan could survive, thus he warned him of the most likely outcome: you will die...

    Kosh would likely have known that Lorien would be in Z'ha'dum to help after the fall, but there were many "what ifs" before that moment. What if the Shadows didn't try to convince Sheridan but kill him from the beginning? What if Sheridan had not concealed the PPG gun that allowed him to escape? What if he had taken a wrong turn and not gotten to the pit to jump in time?
    Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.

    And after Kosh knew his time was over he would have become certain that without his help Sheridan's death would be even more likely ("But there is a price to pay...")

    Kosh going into Sheridan would have been then a last ditch attempt to help him (and to escape certain death for himself, if only for a little while...), a last minute idea, and maybe if Kosh had thought of it before the attack on him started a bigger portion of him might have gone on Sheridan.

    It does actually work much better that Kosh died in I&E... and it was Kosh's idea!

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