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When did Kosh go into Sheridan?

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  • #16
    I think when a Vorlon travels inside someone, he needs to "touch their mind" in a very specific way. Probably to insulate the carrier's mind from the cargo. Possibly to prevent thoughts from intermingling or maybe sanity issues

    The results of this touching we know about, in that both Lyta and Sheridan have some kind of telepathic protection. Note Lyta's comments, soon echoed by Sheridan "You cannot harm someone who has been touched by a Vorlon." I believe this phrase was referring to mental harm/attack, given that Sheridan was proof against the mass suggestion that Lyta was using on everyone in her area of the Zocalo.

    We have only speculations of what happened to Lyta, but several things are obvious.

    1) Gills for breathing. I think was a general physical mod, necessary maybe for the tank they had her in, but also useful in other environments.

    2) Knowledge. General data storage of Vorlon tech knowledge. Not accessible by Lyta upon command, activated only be visual/enviromental clues. Lyta's reaction to the 3rdspace portal.

    3) Auto programming. In extreme circumstance, the program takes over. Note in 3rdspace when Lyta is reciting the knowledge, she is in recitation mode, but the program is flexible enough to answer the basic questions, and also, to download instructions to Sheridan. When it downloads, we see the same animation used for Vorlon transfer. Used by Kosh when he and Lyta do their thing, and also by Ulkesh Kosh, when he removed himself from Lyta.

    This is a separate method of transferring knowledge here then the tp standard ability, as seen when she shows #1 what happened to Garibaldi, Endgame and when she transmits information to the telepaths leaving B5 Phoenix Rising.

    4) Upgrades. Through whatever means, Lyta has enhanced powers that became activated as needed in the right situations. These would have had Vorlon activaters on them.

    a) When going 1 on 1 with the Shadow Vessel in Walkabout. Beyond a P5. She was not getting anywhere at first, then when reminded by Kosh of what had happened, she got stronger. In this case Koshes action probably fired a trigger that gave her a boost, and her anger helped her focus, try again, and she could do it.

    b) Shielding/Interference The conference with Bester, where she can not only shield herself, but parry his physic probes of the others.

    c) Clairvoyancy. When looking for an escape route for her and Byron through the access tunnels.

    d) Mental projection. I think she assisted in the illusions that slowed down the workers who were trying to cut into the telepaths areas. Also, in Endgame where she was able to activate 2 dozen+ dormant telepath minds anywhere from 50-200 miles away.

    e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.

    I think the twin triggers of self-preservation and preservation of telepaths kicked off the last series of changes and powers that we saw evidence of in Objects in Motion. The Vorlons obviously wanted their pawn alive, and wanted telepaths as a whole alive for anti-shadow purposes.

    All of this would have been done when she was in the tank on Vorlon.
    Last edited by NotKosh; 08-10-2004, 08:45 AM.
    "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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    • #17
      <<e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.>>

      Telekinesis?
      Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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      • #18
        Re: When did Kosh go into Sherridan ?

        Originally posted by Bonehead
        Well, the original question was when did he go into Sherridan.

        I think there is a distinct difference between Kosh 'touching' someones mind and actually breaking a peice of himself off.

        For me, the dream as Kosh was dying was when he put a part of himself in Sherridan.

        But for touching his mind, as Cronan pointed out, Kosh says "We were never away. For the first time your mind is open enough to here us "

        Which, to me, indicates a kind of 'collective consciousness' that others can access when their mind is in a certain state (like G'Kar when he was on dust)

        In fact, this is a fairly well known idea in real life, that we share a collective consciousness or race memory. Some have even suggested this can be accessed through deep meditation. I remember reading an interesting book on it called 'The Celestine Prophecy' where they suggest access to this hidden consciousness can reveal many secrets of life and why we are here.
        Very intriguing. I never read the CELESTINE PROPHESY. There is also the metaphysical idea of race memory as you say and that we may be able to reach back to the first thought of our species. Any I think that if we did find out that information as in the book.. it will drive alot of us mad. The rest just won't believe it.
        The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Jan
          I thought perhaps the entire "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum you will die" might have been Kosh's way to discourage Sheridan because Kosh knew that he'd have to physically go along if Sheridan did, and that it would be dangerous. As we know, Kosh was afraid of dying. Maybe it was his way of trying to avoid his own Gethsemane?

          Jan
          It would have been Kosh's total death. That little piece of Kosh was able to come forth when Sheridan was in mortal danger. "JUMP! JUMP NOW!!" Kosh knew that Lorien was there and that Lorien would catch him when he fell.
          The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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          • #20
            Some things to remember:

            JMS had not originally planned for Kosh to die in Interludes & Examinations... that is obvious from several of his comments. Check the Lurker's Guide for I&E for a quick view of some.

            This is why Kosh's reply to Sheridan about dying at Z'ha'dum was "Yes, now."
            Just like Sheridan, we didn't understand then, but we did later...

            From this I assume the original plan was that Kosh would have travelled with Sheridan (inside him?) to Z'ha'dum and flown with him as he fell, with Kosh dying in the process and Sheridan almost dying, Lorien entering there in about the same way. But Kosh would not have been entirely sure that Sheridan could survive, thus he warned him of the most likely outcome: you will die...

            Kosh would likely have known that Lorien would be in Z'ha'dum to help after the fall, but there were many "what ifs" before that moment. What if the Shadows didn't try to convince Sheridan but kill him from the beginning? What if Sheridan had not concealed the PPG gun that allowed him to escape? What if he had taken a wrong turn and not gotten to the pit to jump in time?
            Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.

            And after Kosh knew his time was over he would have become certain that without his help Sheridan's death would be even more likely ("But there is a price to pay...")

            Kosh going into Sheridan would have been then a last ditch attempt to help him (and to escape certain death for himself, if only for a little while...), a last minute idea, and maybe if Kosh had thought of it before the attack on him started a bigger portion of him might have gone on Sheridan.

            It does actually work much better that Kosh died in I&E... and it was Kosh's idea!
            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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            • #21
              From this I assume the original plan was that Kosh would have travelled with Sheridan (inside him?) to Z'ha'dum and flown with him as he fell, with Kosh dying in the process and Sheridan almost dying, Lorien entering there in about the same way. But Kosh would not have been entirely sure that Sheridan could survive, thus he warned him of the most likely outcome: you will die...

              Kosh would likely have known that Lorien would be in Z'ha'dum to help after the fall, but there were many "what ifs" before that moment. What if the Shadows didn't try to convince Sheridan but kill him from the beginning? What if Sheridan had not concealed the PPG gun that allowed him to escape? What if he had taken a wrong turn and not gotten to the pit to jump in time?
              Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.
              There is an assumption in this line of reasoning that Kosh knew the Future.

              Unlikely. The prediction that, "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die." was based on the fact that the Shadows did not tolerate "Tourists".
              And that the Shadows would turn Anyone foolish enough to land on Z'ha'dum into a servant the same way they did Anna and Morden.
              Kosh, knowing that Sheridan was not likely to agree to serve willingly the way Morden did,
              assumed that Sheridan would end up in the Spare Parts Bin

              It doesn't take any great mental abilites at all to predict that:
              "If you junp in front of a moving Freight Train, You Will Die".

              Last edited by bakana; 08-10-2004, 12:19 PM.

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              • #22
                The actual implicit assumption in what you quote of my post is precisely that Kosh didn't really know what would happen, he was making a "prediction" based on what he knew of Sheridan and the Shadows...
                Or, in other words, I agree with your reasoning bakana, I only didn't make it explicit in my prior post. I also tend to reject any speculation that is based on assigning the Vorlons mystical future telling abilities.
                You forgot to quote this part:
                Originally posted by Capt.Montoya

                Vorlons were not all-knowing, with so many things that could go wrong Kosh had to warn Sheridan of the very likely possibility that going to Z'ha'dum would mean the end of his life.
                You're right, it doesn't take that much to predict that Sheridan would die at Z'ha'dum, but in the show only Kosh really thought about it...
                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                • #23
                  Nope, I don't think Kosh was saying "if you go to Z'Ha"Dum you will almost certainly die." He was saying that Sheridan would die, flat out.

                  I have no idea whether Vorlons in general were capable of this kind of prophecy, but Kosh's statement was as clear an example of prophecy as we saw.

                  Kosh kinda, sorta, aborted his own prophecy by placing enough of himself in Sheridan to guide him along his path to Lorien. However, in the end Sheridan did die - just under the circumstance that allowed him to return.

                  But we also have to remember that Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum, as he had all along planned, in order to die and take a lot of Shadows with him. He never wavered from his promise in "In the Shadow...":

                  "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die."

                  "Then I die. But I will not go down easily, and I will not go down alone. You will teach me?"

                  (pause)

                  "Yes."
                  I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                  • #24
                    prophecy

                    If I answer to your argument you will reply...
                    Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                    James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                    • #25
                      Among other things, Sheridan did NOT die on Z'ha'dum.

                      Lorien very clearly stated that he had (Just Barely ) manaaged to keep Sheridan Alive.

                      "What if I die?"
                      "I can not create life, but I can breathe on the remaining embers.. It may not work."
                      "But I can hope."
                      "Hope is all we have."

                      Lorien & Sheridan in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"

                      I did all I could to help him, but I can not create life, only the universe can do that.
                      I can extend, enhance, there is no magic, nothing spiritual about it, only the application of energies, healing and rebuilding cells."

                      Lorien to Delenn in Babylon 5:"Falling Toward Apotheosis"
                      And Kosh wasn't issuing Prophesy.
                      He based his statement on a Million Years of History.
                      No enemy of the Shadows had survived going to Z'ha'dum in that entire time, not even a Vorlon.
                      The Idea that Sheridan could survive was not even good for a Laugh.

                      If Kosh had been a Prophet, he'd have known that Lorien was about to do something that Lorien hadn't done in even More eons: Interfere in the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                        <<e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.>>

                        Telekinesis?
                        Yes and no. Yes for the cuffs. The camera looked more like a mental blast that effected the target like an energy hit.
                        "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                          <<e) I don't know what to call this one, but the ability to short out the camera in the cell, and later release/fragment the handcuffs.>>

                          Telekinesis?



                          Yes and no. Yes for the cuffs. The camera looked more like a mental blast that effected the target like an energy hit.

                          Or, maybe she just twisted all the wires together ??

                          More Telekinesis.

                          Although, to me, the handcuffs looked like more than that.
                          I'd have to rewatch the episode, but I thought it looked like they fell to the ground in Pieces, not just fell open...

                          Pieces would imply that she had some way to create Metal Fatigue in hardened, bolt cutter resistant steel.
                          Couple possibilities there:
                          A mental ability that affects metal on the molecular level. (Jason Ironheart, you've got Competition.)
                          She's carrying around some Vorlon tech that can do the same...

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bakana
                            Pieces would imply that she had some way to create Metal
                            Or just unscrewed the bolts holding the handcuffs together.

                            Lyta may also be able to cut metal.
                            Andrew Swallow

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                            • #29
                              Or just unscrewed the bolts holding the handcuffs together.
                              Last time I held a pair of handcuffs, they were put together with Rivets and Welds.
                              You don't want something a prisoner can take apart...

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                              • #30
                                I guess what happened to the handcuffs would depend on whether Lyta's telekinetic powers allowed her to deform objects, in addition to moving them.
                                If she can deform rivets (or other materials) there's no need to do any molecular restructuring...

                                Think of a telekinetic mind as a hand: you can use it to grab, push... but also to apply pressure and squeeze.
                                Typically telekinesis is portrayed as only moving objects, but with Lyta's modifications she may have been capable of other manipulations.

                                It was also a matter of time... we don't know when she started to deform the cuffs to break free (sort of like using "mental plyers" to weaken the rivets while no one was watching), we only saw that at the proper moment she showed she could get free. At that moment she may have already made enough manipulations that all it took was a shake for the cuffs to fall appart.
                                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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