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When did Kosh go into Sheridan?

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  • When did Kosh go into Sheridan?

    Now, I think the standard answer, would be Interludes and Examinations because he is talking to him before he gets wasted.

    Now in that episode, Sheridan mentioned that Kosh had touched his mind before, but I can't remember when.

    I think that he also went in, on a much earlier occasion.

    I believe we have proof that he went in before. In All Alone in the Night, I think Kosh is in then, giving Sheridan those visions. If not, then he went in and programmed him to see those when his mind was calmer.
    "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

  • #2
    Im pretty damn sure it was in Interludes when this occured. In All Alone Sheridan asked how Kosh was here, in the dream, to wit Kosh responded:

    We were never away. For the first time your mind is open enough to here us (forget if there was a plural here or not).

    No implication of Kosh burrowing inside Sheridans mind here.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CRONAN
      Im pretty damn sure it was in Interludes when this occured. In All Alone Sheridan asked how Kosh was here, in the dream, to wit Kosh responded:

      We were never away. For the first time your mind is open enough to here us (forget if there was a plural here or not).

      No implication of Kosh burrowing inside Sheridans mind here.
      I would think he would have had to, prior, in order for the message to get there, which would be accessible, when Sheridan had time, etc.

      I don't believe that Kosh broadcasted it from B5 to Sheridan aboard the Streib ship.
      Last edited by NotKosh; 08-04-2004, 10:18 AM.
      "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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      • #4
        in the book 'INVOKING DARKNESS', it is stated that as kosh was dying he placed a small piece of himself inside sheridan.
        Duracell Bunny is arrested and charged with BATTERY!!

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        • #5
          It was during the dream, where Kosh appears as Sheridan's father.
          It was only later that we could realize that Kosh wasn't just saying his goodbyes with Sheridan....
          I'll say it was only because of the previous contact that Kosh was able to place part of himself in Sheridan.
          Also, Lyta could carry a Vorlon in her because of the genetic enhancements made on her. I suspect that Kosh wouldn't be able to put all of himself in anyone else. Since Lyta wasn't in B5 as Kosh died only by putting a part of him in Sheridan did Kosh (partly) survive.
          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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          • #6
            Also, as we saw, Lyta didn't carry All of Kosh.
            At least not often.
            When she was confronted by Ulkesh, she said as much:


            "Where?"

            "I'm sorry. I wasn't here. I was doing what he told me to do. He wasn't with me when he left. Not even a piece of him. I swear."

            "Failed. Gone."

            "No, I'm sorry. It's my fault."

            "There was no other?"

            "No. Not that I knew of. I'm sorry. He's gone."

            "Follow."

            Kosh #2 (Ulkesh) and Lyta in Babylon 5: "Walkabout"
            The occassions when Kosh placed All of itself inside Lyta would have been few.
            It left him too vulnerable to unforseen accidents.

            We have to assume that, when he Did go that route, it was because the errand was one where only Kosh could succeed.
            Which means that there were probably Shadows involved at some point.

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            • #7
              When did Kosh go into Sherridan ?

              Well, the original question was when did he go into Sherridan.

              I think there is a distinct difference between Kosh 'touching' someones mind and actually breaking a peice of himself off.

              For me, the dream as Kosh was dying was when he put a part of himself in Sherridan.

              But for touching his mind, as Cronan pointed out, Kosh says "We were never away. For the first time your mind is open enough to here us "

              Which, to me, indicates a kind of 'collective consciousness' that others can access when their mind is in a certain state (like G'Kar when he was on dust)

              In fact, this is a fairly well known idea in real life, that we share a collective consciousness or race memory. Some have even suggested this can be accessed through deep meditation. I remember reading an interesting book on it called 'The Celestine Prophecy' where they suggest access to this hidden consciousness can reveal many secrets of life and why we are here.
              *Den-Sha*

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              • #8
                I think it was definitely in 'Interludes', simply because there is a short scene where Kosh's eye narrows and they cut immediately to C&C, where Corwin announces they've picked up an unknown energy surge ("a non-localised phenomenon"). That phrase is only used one other place in the show AFAIK - when Delenn and Lennier are explaining to Brother Edward about the nature of souls in 'Passing Through Gethsemene".

                I immediately took that scene as being Kosh breaking a piece of his soul apart & placing it in Sheridan.

                In 'All Alone in the Night' Kosh was just projecting telepathically IMO.

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                • #9
                  <<That phrase is only used one other place in the show AFAIK - when Delenn and Lennier are explaining to Brother Edward about the nature of souls in 'Passing Through Gethsemene".

                  I immediately took that scene as being Kosh breaking a piece of his soul apart & placing it in Sheridan.>>

                  Crap, that's a sharp ear you have there, chap. Purposeful on JMS' part? Probably not, but that doesn't mean the two lines are not connected. He could have subconciously written them in such a way to play off each other. That kind of stuff happens, believe me.
                  Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                  • #10
                    Also, I might add that in the novels, and stop now if you are reading this and wish to avoid SPOILERS...









                    ...that Kosh puts of piece of himself in Sheridan's mind while he is being killed.
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                    • #11
                      A little too late for that. This whole freaking site is one colossal, gigantic spoiler.

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                      • #12
                        Which, to me, indicates a kind of 'collective consciousness' that others can access when their mind is in a certain state (like G'Kar when he was on dust)
                        How did the idea of a "Collective consciousness" come into this??

                        The entire conversation between Kosh & Sheridan was very much a One on One sort of dialogue. Kosh said
                        For the first time your mind is quiet enough to hear me."
                        (Italics Mine)

                        I'd say that was pretty clear. JMS is very precise in his use of English.
                        Even when he's in Vorlon Mode.

                        Plus, as we know from
                        "Ambassador. I've been looking for you. Last week, after you saved my life, I didn't really get a chance to thank you properly. I've tried to reach you since then, but .. you haven't answered my calls. Is everything all right?"

                        "Being seen by so many at once was a great strain. I returned to my ship to rest. You have a question?"

                        "Nobody knows it was you. Everyone saw something .. different, something from the legends of their own world. But it was still a terrible risk. After taking such .. such care to hide what you really are, why take that chance?"

                        "It was necessary."

                        "Well, as answers go, short to the point, utterly useless and totally consistent, what I've come to expect from a Vorlon."

                        "Good."

                        -- Sheridan and Kosh in Babylon 5:"Matters of Honor"
                        dealing with more than One Mind at a time was a bit rough on Kosh...

                        There IS a bit of evidence that Kosh was preparing Sheridan to carry a piece of Kosh while "Training" him to Understand Vorlons
                        "I will do as you ask. .. But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Z'ha'dum."

                        "You already said if I go to Z'ha'dum, I'll die."

                        "Yes. Now."

                        "Right. If that's the tradeoff, if you want to withhold your help when the time comes, that's fine. I'll go there alone."

                        "You do not understand. But you will."

                        -- Kosh and Sheridan in Babylon 5:"Interludes and Examinations"
                        Because Kosh knew that the actions Sheridan demanded were going to Get Kosh Killed.

                        Lyta had to be "Modified" to carry a Vorlon. It's a pretty safe bet that Sheridan also needed to be modified is some way for the same reasons.

                        Among other things, to conceal the fact that Kosh was there.
                        Ulkesh couldn't tell. Although Lorien knew immediately.
                        That piece of Kosh might have been to only reason Lorien was able to save Sheridan.
                        After all, it WAS a two mile fall...
                        Last edited by bakana; 08-08-2004, 05:28 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Well you can certainly quote nicely and selectivly from the vids.

                          Unfortunatly selective quotation and even more dubious and selective interpretation doesn't make you right.

                          Kosh left part of himself behind during the dream sequence.

                          Kosh was tired 'dealing with many minds' because everyone who saw him saw somthing different and he had to project those images - nothing to do with a bit of Kosh already co-habiting with Sheridan.

                          Ulkesh Kosh couldnt tell if there was a piece of Kosh in Lyta, he had to ask... why would it have been any different with Sheridan?

                          Lyta had to be altered to carry Kosh. Wasnt the main part of the alteration the gills so she could breath the atmosphere in Kosh's quarters? Kinda hard getting through a re-breather mask even if you are one of the ancients!

                          Kosh did indeed say that he wouldnt be able to help Sheridan if he went to Z'ha'dum and that Sheridan would die.... strange that coz when he did fall... Kosh was the one who told him to jump (help?) and he did die (Lorien didnt save his life, he just put Sheridan into a 20 year Steppford Captain mode).

                          In interpretation we can all invent the future.... as pebbles being carried in the current the ripples we send are insignficant... but they are still ripples!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One_more_pebble
                            Well you can certainly quote nicely and selectivly from the vids.

                            Unfortunatly selective quotation and even more dubious and selective interpretation doesn't make you right.

                            Kosh left part of himself behind during the dream sequence.
                            What's your rationale for this? If he leaves a piece of himself behind every time he enters someone's mind then he'd have left a piece of himself in G'Kar, Londo, Talia... as well as anyone else he'd come into contact with over the past 1000 years or so. I could accept that he might leave 'footprints', but that's all. It is after all a TV-show, and the proof is there in the words & pictures on the screen. JMS didn't put random words and phrases in there, its all thought out!

                            Kosh was tired 'dealing with many minds' because everyone who saw him saw somthing different and he had to project those images - nothing to do with a bit of Kosh already co-habiting with Sheridan.
                            Correct.

                            Ulkesh Kosh couldnt tell if there was a piece of Kosh in Lyta, he had to ask... why would it have been any different with Sheridan?

                            Lyta had to be altered to carry Kosh. Wasnt the main part of the alteration the gills so she could breath the atmosphere in Kosh's quarters? Kinda hard getting through a re-breather mask even if you are one of the ancients!
                            Okay. Yes Lyta got gills. But before she went into Vorlon space, she was also a P5. She came back somewhat more powerful than that... more powerful than any other human telepath since Jason Ironheart. That was the primary modification made by the Vorlons IMO, and thats the one Lyta was talking about. She was also strong enough to block Ulkesh when she wanted to, which Ulkesh knew, which is why he had to ask.

                            I've no idea why Ulkesh didn't pick up on Kosh living in Sheridan, I can only assume that Kosh scattered himself deep within Sheridan's subconscious and only a deep scan would pick it up. He's not a telepath after all. Lyta thought she might pick Kosh up by going to Z'ha'dum after Sheridan's fall, but didn't.

                            Oh, and I really don't think the breather mask makes the slightest difference to a telepath - least of all one of Kosh's ability.

                            Kosh did indeed say that he wouldnt be able to help Sheridan if he went to Z'ha'dum and that Sheridan would die.... strange that coz when he did fall... Kosh was the one who told him to jump (help?) and he did die (Lorien didnt save his life, he just put Sheridan into a 20 year Steppford Captain mode).
                            Yep, I've often wondered about that myself. Maybe what Kosh meant was that either he was going to physically go with him to Z'ha'dum, or there would be some 'modifications' & preperation to Sheridan prior to his departure, but as it was, all Kosh could do was scatter a piece of himself through Sheridan's brain so he could only pop up at crucial times. There wasn't time for what Kosh had originally planned.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bil1010105
                              Yep, I've often wondered about that myself. Maybe what Kosh meant was that either he was going to physically go with him to Z'ha'dum, or there would be some 'modifications' & preperation to Sheridan prior to his departure, but as it was, all Kosh could do was scatter a piece of himself through Sheridan's brain so he could only pop up at crucial times. There wasn't time for what Kosh had originally planned. [/B]
                              I thought perhaps the entire "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum you will die" might have been Kosh's way to discourage Sheridan because Kosh knew that he'd have to physically go along if Sheridan did, and that it would be dangerous. As we know, Kosh was afraid of dying. Maybe it was his way of trying to avoid his own Gethsemane?

                              Jan
                              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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