Crusade: loved it/hated it?

[Trollheart]

I only watched it the once (which, considering it's Babylon 5 material, tells its own tale) but I was very disappointed with it. I felt it was kind of Babylon 5-lite, and I know the network wanted it less "deep" and more "fighty", so to speak, but I felt JMS missed the mark bigtime on this.

I wasn't as interested in the characters as I had been in B5. Yes, I know that had 5 years to run, but even after the Gathering, before there was even a series, I was intrigued and enthralled by the varied characters in the show. I did not feel that about Crusade. It almost, to me, was like someone else writing a poor man's B5, and failing.

And as for Galen! Well, don't get me started, but he did NOTHING for me at all. Didn't get him one bit. I'm also not a fan of the technomages, so I guess that doesn't help.

Had it gone on to full seasons after the first, would it have been better? Woudl I have grown to like it? Maybe. But with B5 I was hooked from the first ten minutes. I realise this is a tall order, and happens very seldom with TV series, but Crusade had all of the Babylon 5 backstory to utilise, and I don't feel it did.

I was sorry when it was cancelled, but I wasn't surprised. I would say I certainly don't miss it as I do its parent series.

Thoughts?

[Jan]

I'm the opposite. Loved Crusade, loved the characters and adored Galen (but then I'm a smartass, so that figures ) I really hated that it was cancelled before even being given a chance.

That said, I don't unreservedly worship it. The first time I saw it, I felt that the first episodes I saw (black uniforms) were somehow kind of 'watered down', just not as good as I knew JMS could do. Then the grey uniform episodes came along and it *was* as good as I knew it could be. I don't have the Crusade script books yet (nobody does) but I do have the scripts - all drafts as far as I know. Some of them have *marked* differences from each other.

As for the B5 backstory, from what I gather TNT was totally schizoid about whether to keep ties to the station and its people or not. One minute yes (which is how Tracy Scoggins got a contract), the next minute no.

Jan

[Jonas]

I loved Galen and parts of the crew (Gideon was wonderful; Carrie Dobro is a very likeable actress but I hated Dureena's makeup to the point where it distracted me), but the show didn't work very well for me. It seems like there's always something undermining the quality of the episodes - sometimes the effects, very often the music, and sometimes unfortunately also the writing.

I think the show had great potential, and would've developed much further, but I also think it had a lot of conceptual flaws that were not due to TNT. It felt a bit... juvenile, a bit clichÚ, with its RPG-like characters and its missions of the week. It makes me miss the adult tone of B5. Crusade should've been a return to the mysterious atmosphere of B5's first season, but it ended up feeling more like a bad copy of Star Trek.

There's a lot that I like in Crusade, but as a show, it doesn't really work for me.

[Trollheart]

Like I said, it seemed to me more like Babylon 5-lite (or to quote Spooks, Babylon 5 code 9....)
Babylon 5 High? Now that's just being smart...!

"If he's him, and you're you, and he's also you, am I still me? Whos's eatin' this chicken? What the hell is going on?" --- Cat, Red Dwarf, "Stasis Leak"

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I'm in between on it. There's parts of it I really hate, but I do like some of the episodes, I love the concept of Galen and I think that it had the potential to go pretty far.

I do think it's pretty commercially unviable for the most part. And I wish the X-files episode didn't exist.

[KoshN]

Love it.

On first viewing, I didn't like it very much. However, in repeated viewings, I liked it more and more. There is almost no other show I'd like to see continued as much as "Crusade." "Brimstone" is the one other show. If I won the lottery for a few hundred million dollars, I'd back a re-start of Crusade with the original cast, and by doing so, help JMS right the wrongs inflicted by the SOBs at TNT and the numbnuts at Warner Brothers (the idiots that lost all of the CGI files). That's how much I like Crusade.

[KoshN]

I only watched it the once (which, considering it's Babylon 5 material, tells its own tale) but I was very disappointed with it. I felt it was kind of Babylon 5-lite, and I know the network wanted it less "deep" and more "fighty", so to speak, but I felt JMS missed the mark bigtime on this.

Trust me, you need to watch it many more times. You'll see more good on each subsequent run through. IMHO, it's at least 1000 times better than the Rangers pilot movie.

I bet I've watched Crusade at least 15-20 times. I've also read the Technomage trilogy of novels twice, and the Centauri trilogy of novels once. The technomages are featured heavily in both.

I wasn't as interested in the characters as I had been in B5. Yes, I know that had 5 years to run, but even after the Gathering, before there was even a series, I was intrigued and enthralled by the varied characters in the show. I did not feel that about Crusade. It almost, to me, was like someone else writing a poor man's B5, and failing.

And as for Galen! Well, don't get me started, but he did NOTHING for me at all. Didn't get him one bit. I'm also not a fan of the technomages, so I guess that doesn't help.

I've read every B5 novel and short story. If you had, you'd probably feel differently about the technomages and Galen. Right off the bat, when I first watched Crusade on TNT, Galen was my favorite character. Later I grew to like them all except Lochley and especially Dr. Chambers. I can at best tolerate those two.

Had it gone on to full seasons after the first, would it have been better? Woudl I have grown to like it? Maybe. But with B5 I was hooked from the first ten minutes. I realise this is a tall order, and happens very seldom with TV series, but Crusade had all of the Babylon 5 backstory to utilise, and I don't feel it did.

It did, more than anything (TV or DVD) in the B5 universe that's been made since Crusade.

I was sorry when it was cancelled, but I wasn't surprised. I would say I certainly don't miss it as I do its parent series.

Like B5, Crusade improves with repeated viewing. Right now, I look back on Crusade with nostalgia, i.e. those were the good ol' days.

[WorkerCaste]

I wouldn't go all the way to love because we didn't have enough time together. A true love takes time, I think.

Seriously, though, I liked it a great deal and was very disappointed when it was cancelled. It really felt like it was going somewhere, and I thought the characters were showing depth pretty quickly. There really wasn't anyone I'd look at at think they were the weak acting link. Well, maybe Trace. It did seem like you could see the actor working sometimes. That may have just been a function of only two episodes, though.

[Morden]

I like Crusade very much, liked it from the very beginning when I first watched it, and still like it every time I see it. Of course, some things are distracting a here and there, some weak effects, some parts of the music, and characters like Chambers and Dureena, which never worked out completely in my opinion until the show was canceled. But I have always been very fond of the overall story, concept and premises, the characters, the setting, the atmosphere, the mystic aspects, the moral questions raised. I never got the feeling that it was Babylon 5 "light" (the first half of B5's fifth season awakened that feeling in me), I especially like Crusade because it was different (!) and because it took another road. Would have really loved to see how it would have developed after a few more seasons, especially after what (little) we know about JMS' plans for the show. And Kosh'N , if I were a multi-billionair, I'd invest into your project, of course!

[Boo Gee]

I love Crusade. I've said this before and I'll say it again, pound for pound, Crusade's first 13 eps were vastly superior to B5s in every way, shape & form. Stories, acting, music... all way better. Need scriptbooks now

[KoshN]

I never got the feeling that it was Babylon 5 "light"....

Neither did I! Even in only 13 episodes, Crusade was already showing connections to things outside of the episode currently being watched.

And KoshN , if I were a multi-billionair, I'd invest into your project, of course!

Multi-billionaire? Whew! ~$300 million would be enough for me. After taxes, I'd probably get $195 million. Then $140 million for a Crusade restart, $50 million for Brimstone restart and $5 million for me. I could live extremely well for $5 million.

Damn! There are soo many shows I'd like to restart:

Keen Eddie
Strange Luck
Wonderfalls
The Tick (live action)
Reaper
Boomtown
etc.

[Trollheart]

I love Crusade. I've said this before and I'll say it again, pound for pound, Crusade's first 13 eps were vastly superior to B5s in every way, shape & form. Stories, acting, music... all way better. Need scriptbooks now

I'll fight you on that, anytime, anywhere. I'll kick your ass (at Nintendo....)
B5 was the first, the very first series where I connected with it on every level from the opening scene of the first episode. There were one or two duff (or, let's say, below par) episodes in season one, but to compare Crusade to the likes of "And the sky full of stars", "Born to the Purple" or "Believers" is fallacy, I believe.

I do admit that perhaps, on repeat viewings, I may warm to Crusade, but it didn't take repeat watches for me to get totally into B5, and as Crusade was an "offshoot" of that fine program, I should have been into it right away. I wasn't.

One thing that was a MAJOR disappointment was the title music! WHERE was Mister Franke, with his sweeping, orchestral, triumphant and suspenseful scores? Why was he not enlisted for Crusade? Bah!

Here's a point to discuss: if Babylon 5 had never been made, and Crusade had been JMS's first attempt at TV drama, would you have liked it so much? Or are you allowing it some leeway because it's linked to Babylon 5?

[Jan]

When it comes to the multiple viewing, one thing I've noticed over the years is that many times people dislike things like the off-format episodes or a new character or even a spin-off because of how different they are from what they're used to from B5. Ironically, it's often after they fell in love with B5 *because* it was different. Many times people have posted that once they got used to the difference, they enjoyed it much better.

Here's a point to discuss: if Babylon 5 had never been made, and Crusade had been JMS's first attempt at TV drama, would you have liked it so much? Or are you allowing it some leeway because it's linked to Babylon 5?

That's a good question and I'd have to say that Yes, I would have liked it every bit as much.

For me it's *always* about character and I liked the Crusade characters and their interactions with each other right from the start. They were all very individual and distinguishable right from the start and I was beginning to enjoy learning about their backstories.

Jan

[KoshN]

I'll fight you on that, anytime, anywhere. I'll kick your ass (at Nintendo....)
B5 was the first, the very first series where I connected with it on every level from the opening scene of the first episode.

I think it partly depends on what you were coming out of. The first B5 episode I ever saw was "Shadow Dancing" (S3E21), and I was coming out of DS9 <spit> and Voyager <spit>. When I saw "Shadow Dancing," I was immediately HOOKED HARD. Never paid much attention to DS9 or Voyager after that. I wanted to see everything B5 that I could get my hands on. To this day, I haven't watched 100% of DS9 or Voyager, because to me, they look like crap next to B5.

There were one or two duff (or, let's say, below par) episodes in season one, but to compare Crusade to the likes of "And the sky full of stars", "Born to the Purple" or "Believers" is fallacy, I believe.

On a scale of 1 (crap) to 10 (great), here's how I'd rate B5's first 13 regular episodes:

Order, Prod. #, Title, Rating
01 103 Midnight on the Firing Line 8
02 102 Soul Hunter 7
03 104 Born to the Purple 8
04 101 Infection 5
05 108 The Parliament of Dreams 7
06 110 Mind War 8
07 107 The War Prayer 7
08 106 And The Sky Full Of Stars 9
09 113 Deathwalker 8
10 105 Believers 5
11 111 Survivors 6
12 114 By Any Means Necessary 7
13 116 Signs and Portents 10

AVG=7.3

....and here's how I'd rate Crusade's first 13:

Order, Prod. #, Title, Rating
01 108 War Zone 7
02 107 The Long Road 7
03 106 The Well of Forever 8
04 109 The Path of Sorrows 10
05 110 Patterns of the Soul 8
06 111 Ruling from the Tomb 6
07 112 The Rules of the Game 8
08 113 Appearances and Other Deceits 7
09 103 Racing the Night 8
10 102 The Memory of War 8
11 101 The Needs of Earth 8
12 104 Visitors from Down the Street 7
13 105 Each Night I Dream of Home 8

AVG=7.7

I do admit that perhaps, on repeat viewings, I may warm to Crusade,

I'd say you probably will, just like I did.

....but it didn't take repeat watches for me to get totally into B5, and as Crusade was an "offshoot" of that fine program, I should have been into it right away. I wasn't.

That's because you came out of B5, a fine program. You had high expectations and probably wanted something more B5-like. After awhile, I actually grew to like the unfamiliar, foreign, strange sound of Crusade. It felt more disconcerting and alien, which is what you should have if you're out investigating all these strange places. It should instill a sense of unease, forboding and horror at times. Just imagine what the soundtrack would have been like when Gideon was pursuing the shadow hybrid ship in "To the Ends of the Earth" or when Gideon and Galen was infiltrating the secret Earthforce Black Projects shadowtech base in "End of the Line" or when Matheson encountered Bester in "Value Judgements."

One thing that was a MAJOR disappointment was the title music!

Never bothered me. Seemed rather generic.

WHERE was Mister Franke, with his sweeping, orchestral, triumphant and suspenseful scores? Why was he not enlisted for Crusade? Bah!

They, JMS and company wanted something different. After awhile I got used to it, along with most of the rest of Crusade's sound, except for the self-indulgent noise over the end credits of "Ruling from the Tomb."

Here's a point to discuss: if Babylon 5 had never been made, and Crusade had been JMS's first attempt at TV drama, would you have liked it so much? Or are you allowing it some leeway because it's linked to Babylon 5?

Yes, I'd have liked Crusade better from the very beginning, if I hadn't been subconsciously comparing it to Babylon 5.

[KoshN]

When it comes to the multiple viewing, one thing I've noticed over the years is that many times people dislike things like the off-format episodes or a new character or even a spin-off because of how different they are from what they're used to from B5. Ironically, it's often after they fell in love with B5 *because* it was different. Many times people have posted that once they got used to the difference, they enjoyed it much better.

The thing is, how do you get used to the difference. Answer: repeated viewing. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well for the show in first run. Repeated viewing takes time, and by that time, the show is cancelled.