Lennier's end and Delenn's part in it

[KoshN]

good Point Doc. In the novels, don't forget, Lennier does save David, and hopes that made up for his error.

Which novel does this occur in Please? I need to know.

http://jmsnews.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60671&postcount=20

[Delenn_of_Mir]

That would have been a really cool novel. I can imagine it occurring after sleeping in light, and David has joined the rangers. Lennier meets him, they go off on a mission together, and Lennier has to heroically save David from dying. Afterwards David needs to go home to recuperate, and Lennier accompanies him on his journey. Delenn sees him agan, they talk about what occurred between them, Delenn assures him that she forgave him long ago, and so did John. The two part as friends again.

Sigh.

[Jan]

good Point Doc. In the novels, don't forget, Lennier does save David, and hopes that made up for his error.

Which novel does this occur in Please? I need to know.

Ranger 6 and 7/8 misremembered, Delenn of Mir. Lennier wasn't in the novels. In early drafts of Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" there would have been an indication that Lennier helped Lyta against the Psi Corps.

Jan

[Delenn_of_Mir]

[QUOTE=Ranger 6 and 7/8;60646]good Point Doc. In the novels, don't forget, Lennier does save David, and hopes that made up for his error.


Which novel does this occur in Please? I need to know.


As far as Delenn and Lennier go, I absolutely loved that moment when Lennier finally has the courage to say, "I love you."
And she responds with, "I know."

That must have just been an automatic reaction, spoken while her mind was elsewhere. She had to have thought about it a lot though for her to have an answer right there ready to go. One that she could give without really thinking about it. Once she did think about it, she though, "In Valen's name. Did we really both say what I think we both said?" But by then it was too late.

I'm not sure I completely believe her when she reads his diary after his attempted murder of Sheridan, and she says, she didn't know how deeply he cared for her. I think she read it and felt sick inside because she realized she should have done something ages ago.

She did lean on him too much. She should have transferred him once her relationship with Sheridan began heating up. But she felt like she needed him. She may not have loved him romantically but she deeply cared about him. For a while there he was the only friend she had in the world during a time when she was feeling very inscure. She had gone past that time, but she continued clinging to him after she no longer needed to, and it was unwise to do so. But hey, nobody's perfect. Not even Delenn the Blessed.

Lennier actually tried to do the right thing. He left and he joined the rangers. Delenn did not make it easy on him. She should have left him alone at that point. He gave her the way out, but still she clung. That cozy little hiding place, the secret from her husband, the way she touched him. Lennier was like her little puppy. I almost saw her relationship with him as that of a mother and her son. I think it may have been that little moment together, the way she used him in a secret plan without John's knowlege that may have pushed him towards what he did later.

Sheridan also could have done something. He must have seen what was going on, but becasue of his often deference to Delenn, and anything having to do with her culture and people he stayed out of it.

I have never given thought before to Delenn's role as relgious leader and the love and adoration she had to accept and deal with as part of that role. It's true, it was there, and she did see herself with Dukhat, in Lennier. She very obviously worshipped him. He was the Most Holy One, after all and she was chosen of Him. She may have loved him? IDK.

So it is possible that she never saw Lennier's feelings for her as any different than how any of the other young religious cast males felt about her. In this case she is guilty only of being blind. Lennier does say she doesn't see the world in the same way as the rest of us. But somehow, i don't believe that. I think she did know. Either way, as the one with the higher position this gives her the brunt of the responsibility.

[KoshN]

In Season 3 Ceremonies of Light and Dark, when Delenn is taken by Night Watch, Lennier told Marcus that he loved Delenn and knew she was meant to be with another. So he knew then that she was off limits to him. It wasn't until season 5 when Sheridan and Delenn married that he disaproved, mainly I think because Sheridan is human and that she, in Lenniers eyes should marry a Minbari. I think if she would of married a Minbari, he would of handled it better. Just saying.

I think you're right.

[Marsden]

Also, before the marriage there's the slimmest and unrealistic hope that she will say, "I don't care about the prophecy" and come back to him.


I think Jonas has a good point about unrequited love. It's an important part of the B5 universe. It also follows a tradition from many of the King Arthur legends/stories which we know is one of the inspirations for our tale here.

I blame them both, but won't assign levels of blame (i.e. who was more to blame) but I think it's a combination of Lennier's obsession and Delenn's neediness. She could have sent him away sooner but he was too damn handy to have around, professionally and personnally. No matter what might have happened (don't forget there was a major war with lots of battles, Sheridan could have been killed and stayed dead at any time ) that he'd be there to help her through it. I think towards the end (5th season) she was leading him on a bit more then she should have. But, he should also have gotten past it.

He really only had a moment's hesitation, if he were a human he could have lied and just said he panicked and then made sure he was seen coming back. I don't know. I think JMS wanted more cowbell, er um ... tragedy.

[ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN]

In Season 3 Ceremonies of Light and Dark, when Delenn is taken by Night Watch, Lennier told Marcus that he loved Delenn and knew she was meant to be with another. So he knew then that she was off limits to him. It wasn't until season 5 when Sheridan and Delenn married that he disaproved, mainly I think because Sheridan is human and that she, in Lenniers eyes should marry a Minbari. I think if she would of married a Minbari, he would of handled it better. Just saying.

[Jan]

I think we only saw the tip of the iceberg when it came to Minbari society and most of that was the Religious Caste. But while it's easy to point to the fact that Minbari are only told "what you require, and no more" and that "understanding is not required, only obedience", I think that the fact that "the calling of your heart" is the one thing that can override everything from your caste to the edicts of the Grey Council is key. I think that the reason Delenn became the leader that she did was because she had the courage to follow her heart while wanting to serve her people instead of blindly following 'tradition' as so many Minbari did.

Jan

[spelldazer]

So many great responses. I'm glad I asked!

I think Lennier's downfall came about through bad decisions made by both parties. The blame lies with both Lennier and Delenn, perhaps in equal parts, but again, I wonder, how much -- if at all -- did Minbari religion contribute to the process? We seem to be judging the relationship from a "human perspective" (our own), but I'm not sure that this is correct, or at least, I'm not sure this gives us the full picture. As mentioned in this thread, there are other considerations, such as Lennier's indoctrination, Delenn's prophesied destiny, and to return to the beginning of the thread -- a mindset that expects obedience over understanding.

[KoshN]

Oh wow. I didn't know about that earlier script. That's really interesting to know!

Lyta and Lennier dying in the telepath war is also mentioned in the Crusade Writer's Bible. I have both the script and the writer's bible.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Oh wow. I didn't know about that earlier script. That's really interesting to know!

[KoshN]

I knew that..<smack forehead>. attribute that to a lengthy conversation with Captain Morgan and 3 days no sleep.
Thanks for the catch KoshN. but I still stand by the rest of the point though.

Ye ol' demon rum.

[Macbeth]

Hey - go back to the Parliament of Dreams and the whole red berry marriage thing. Clearly foreshadowing with Sinclair (plot line later shifted to Sheridan).

It must have been known to the primary assistant to the top member of the religious caste that Delenn had a part of the central prophecy of his religion. Anyhow the idea that Delenn was out of bounds and had a greater destiny should have been ingrained into Lennier.

Not only does this make him selfish - it may make him a heretic.

[ILUVJOHNSHERIDAN]

I agree, Delenn cared for Lennier as a "little brother" nothing more. She did not lead him on. It was Lennier that didn't respect the boundries. He knew for a very long time that she had feelings for Sheridan. He lived in a fantasy world of his own making which lead to the betrayal.

[Ranger 6 and 7/8]

What?!?! Garibaldi and Vir save David. (Legions of Fire - Out of the Darkness. p. 260, in 2277.).

Lennier died with Lyta, during The Telepath War, ~2264, in the bombing of Psi Corps. Headquarters (Crusade - The Path of Sorrows, Matheson's flashback.).

I knew that..<smack forehead>. attribute that to a lengthy conversation with Captain Morgan and 3 days no sleep.
THanks for the catch KoshN. but I still stand by the rest of the point though.