Lennier's end and Delenn's part in it

[spelldazer]

<---Spoiler warning for anyone who has not watched the series to its end.--->

Apologies if this has been discussed here before, but my husband and I (both of us are avid fans) got into something of a debate over this and I started to wonder how others see the issue. We were discussing our little baby's misbehavior and the fact that at 10 months of age, she really doesn't understand very much. I said jokingly that "understanding is not required, only obedience", to which he said "remember how Lennier ended."

Then we got to wondering whether Lennier ended up "badly" because of his "obedience" and the cultural imperatives dominating his relationship with Delenn, or simply because of Delenn's poor handling of the relationship.

So, my question to you is: How do you see this sentence "understanding is not required, only obedience" with regards to the Lennier-Delenn unrequited love relationship?

In my eyes, it is not so much the Minbari tradition that takes Lennier down his dark path, but rather Delenn's personal choices (to ignore his feelings for her, for example) -- Choices which I do not feel she was obligated to make because of Minbari cultural imperatives.

Other opinions?

[Jan]

I've always felt that Delenn's poor handling of Lennier's feelings for her were contributory toward Lennier's downfall. Still, I don't think that it had anything to do with the 'obedience' mandate. After all, it wasn't that which caused Lennier to swear himself to her side. The 'obedience' mandate only applied until they became friends.

Minbari cultural imperratives did play a part, I think, in that it made it difficult for Delenn to discuss the situation with him. Otherwise there wouldn't have had to be that face-saving "I didn't hear you" scene on the white star. She really should have sent him away or at least left him alone once he started Ranger training. Constantly bringing him back was cruel, IMO, and probably contributed more than anything else to his momentary weakness. Who could blame him for thinking that she'd turn to him if Sheridan was out of the picture?

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I'd like to say something but don't have much to add. I'm sure a lot of men on here can relate to the women's 'let's just be friends' thing where they really continue to lead a guy on despite it all and the man does something stupid down the road in regard to that.

This just takes that sort of thing to an extreme.

[glindros]

It's really all Capt. Jankowski's fault isn't it? If he hadn't killed Dukhat, Delenn would have been able to work through her obvious crush on him, and been better able to handle the same situation with Lennier.

[spelldazer]

It's really all Capt. Jankowski's fault isn't it?

Ha hah! I haven't thought of that. But then, one might as well put everything down to fate. Or, why not blame the Vorlons/Shadows...?

SmileOfTheShadow -- While I agree with your point, I feel that it lets both parties off the hook a bit. I think Delenn's actions were more...sinister(?) -- or cruel, as Jan puts it -- than "let's just be friends". I feel she knew well what she was doing to Lennier from the very beginning and did it anyway. So it's not just a case of the benign taken to the extreme. To me, it's much darker and rooted elsewhere. Part of it is cultural, I think, but for the most part... It's Delenn. Not Minbari culture. Not Lennier. And, the more I think about it, the "obedience" mandate requires a certain state of innocence in order for it to fly. It belongs with an "untainted Lennier". A "baby" Lennier.

hmm... QED?

[Macbeth]

Have not thought fully about this, but here are a couple of first impressions.

It seems that we are being a little harsh on Delenn at a personal level.

Remember she was one of the top 3 members of the religious caste, the chosen of Dukhat and a central part of the defining prophecy that comprises their religion. To my thinking this starts her at the "earth" equivalent of "pope" and continues on to become a religious icon in her own right.

"Love" and adoration is something she must have dealt with for a great period of time as the leader of their great religion. To my mind she does not personalize it, she expects it, respects it and deals with it in a casual everyday manner because that's what it requires. Regular standards do not apply. Heck most of her race went to a civil war to follow her, that must imply the "love" of billions of followers.

Pick your own earth history religious/political icon for your own analogy, but I would jump to the big ones who are loved and adored yet generally apart from "regular" interpersonal relationships.

Alternatively, the other religious icon in the show - G'Kar - was not especially kind or considerate to the followers that "loved" him.

Cheers

Mac

[JoeD80]

Alternatively, the other religious icon in the show - G'Kar - was not especially kind or considerate to the followers that "loved" him.

On the contrary, G'Kar went out of his way to try and be kind and teach them after Dr. Franklin advised him on the matter, but he became so frustrated because they weren't interested in listening to what he really had to say. The Narns still ended up destroying Centauri Prime in the end even after he tried to teach them that he had learned to forgive the Centauri himself. They wanted him as a leader for destruction of the Centauri, not for actually learning what he had learned.

[Jan]

I don't disagree with you completely, Mac...but (there's always a 'but') ...

IMO, the worst of Delenn's 'tease' behavior came after she was deposed as one of the Grey Council. It's easy to see that she was isolated and lonely and held onto Lennier as her only loyal friend. She *knew* he felt more than loyalty and friendship but still hugged him and touched him and kept him close even after he'd tried to leave and get over her. He even told her that was why he was leaving.

I'm not saying that her actions weren't understandable, just that she shouldn't have acted that way. On the other hand, who can resist having your own adoring boy-toy around!

Jan

[Spoo Junky]

The smart thing to do when she realized he had feelings for her would be to "transfer" him to another religious division, but by then he was already up to speed on his duties, and you know good help is hard to find...

She had the same sort of adoration to Dukhat and had he lived, who knows where that might have led. He died before it could go further, so she probably didn't realize the consequences of leading someone on, or at least fanning the flames a bit. Despite being a leader in many respects, I'm guessing she was inexperienced with the "darker" sides of love and/or obsession.

[spelldazer]

Mac, you bring up a good point. Quite thought provoking to me.
Here's my take on it: Delenn is a leader and a figure of authority. As such, she is loved and adored by many. Agreed. I don't know enough about Christianity or Minbari religion to relate to your analogy, but the way I see it, Delenn's relationship with Lennier quickly became personal, even intimate (when he watched her transform and cared for her).

If I had to guess, I would say the relationship was modeled after Frodo and Sam in The Lord of the Rings with an added twist. Lennier is Delenn's apprentice, her servant and to a degree, also her confidante. She and he come to know each other "intimately" well to the point where I find it hard to believe that she fails to realize what he feels for her is more than "normal" love/adoration. Perhaps she notices it a little later than she should, but the way I see it, she is fully aware of the situation... which is why I am judgmental of her behavior.

Having said that, I do wonder if her "apprenticeship" at Dukhat's side was a stencil of sorts for her relationship with Lennier. Meaning, perhaps she had feelings towards Dukhat that went beyond the expected love/adoration norm and therefore she extrapolated that this is what Lennier feels for her. It's a possibility, I suppose.

[Jan]

Having said that, I do wonder if her "apprenticeship" at Dukhat's side was a stencil of sorts for her relationship with Lennier. Meaning, perhaps she had feelings towards Dukhat that went beyond the expected love/adoration norm and therefore she extrapolated that this is what Lennier feels for her. It's a possibility, I suppose.

That's a good point. My first reaction was that what Delenn felt for Dukhat was predominently hero worship. Except that she did start an interestellar war when he was killed. Even in the heat of the moment, her training should have made her step back and look for other answers before committing her people to genocide.

Hmmm...

Jan

[Macbeth]

On the contrary, G'Kar went out of his way to try and be kind and teach them after Dr. Franklin advised him on the matter, but he became so frustrated because they weren't interested in listening to what he really had to say. The Narns still ended up destroying Centauri Prime in the end even after he tried to teach them that he had learned to forgive the Centauri himself. They wanted him as a leader for destruction of the Centauri, not for actually learning what he had learned.

You are right Joe, off the top of my head I was thinking about G'Kar early on basically saying - all a youse Narns - stop following me around - you are pissing me off.

That may not be the exact quote.

And a quote about a smack upside the head with the book of G'Kar. (possibly I am confusing that with Garibaldi "thumping the Book of G'Quon")

[Macbeth]

If I had to guess, I would say the relationship was modeled after Frodo and Sam in The Lord of the Rings with an added twist. Lennier is Delenn's apprentice, her servant and to a degree, also her confidante. She and he come to know each other "intimately" well to the point where I find it hard to believe that she fails to realize what he feels for her is more than "normal" love/adoration. Perhaps she notices it a little later than she should, but the way I see it, she is fully aware of the situation... which is why I am judgmental of her behavior.

spelldazer, this is the vibe I was thinking about, Frodo and Sam, Jesus and Disciples (not to be blasphemous please by comparing the two) just the idea of a religious, noble (non-romantic) love - not between equals. In Medieval times swearing love and fealty. I am sure that religious leaders often have to deal with this type of expected and ordained "noble" love being over-reached by the follower into a delusion of romantic love.

Another example is between me and Sidney Crosby of Canada's gold medal winning hockey team

Mac

[Dr Maturin]

I don't care what Delenn did. Lennier was a creepy little bastard and he chose to walk the path that he walked, to do what he did.

[Jonas]

I don't care what Delenn did. Lennier was a creepy little bastard and he chose to walk the path that he walked, to do what he did.

I basically have to agree here. Why is everyone blaming Delenn? Delenn is not the one who has these overwhelming feelings and cannot control them - it's Lennier.

There's nothing new about Lennier's situation. What, no-one in the history of mankind has been in unrequited love before? No-one has fallen in love with a friend who had a partner? It is not the responsibility of the target of the obsession to deal with it. Delenn tries to be as gentle as possible, because she values Lennier's friendship. This proves to be a mistake, but it's an honest mistake: she doesn't want to hurt him. Lennier knows full well she'll never take another partner - he's just deluding himself. It's tragic, and he's certainly a tragic hero, but it's also not her fault.

I do think Minbari cultural norms have something to do with it, though. This whole concept of "perfect spiritual love" is part of what helps Lennier delude himself. His monastic upbringing and lack of real experience makes him exactly the kind of person who can combine innocence and obsession in this dangerous way.