Ranger hierarchy

[Capt.Montoya]

Originally posted by bakana
Capt.Montoya, I wasn't saying the Minbari were modelled after the Japanese.

You didn't... but someone did.

There are certain aspects of
me scattered in all the B5 characters, Delenn in particular. Then you
start adding elements that seem to shore up those traits. For Delenn I
pulled in some aspects of Zen mysticism, Japanese culture, certain
Moslem influences in government and culture (minbar is the name for the
pulpit in a mosque)...next comes the layering of history, where she
came from, who her parents were, what happened to them (which, btw,
you'll hear this season)...

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-4329

There's a great deal of generalized historical and political metaphor in the
show, never one-to-one because that's too easy, but disguised in one form or
another, transumted. The Centauri Republic isn't a real republic by any
stretch of the imagination...any more than the Roman Republic from which it
draws some of its political structure, particularly the Centarum, the ruling
body. There's a great deal of Japanese political and social structure to the
Minbari, in their culture and art and some of their philosophy. You can find
parallels to the story in World War II, and the bible, among a few dozen
others.

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15868


I get your point better now. And in general I agree that we saw too little of the alien cultures to make some conclusions, without antropomorphizing them.

[bakana]

Capt.Montoya, I wasn't saying the Minbari were modelled after the Japanese.

I was using them as an example to refute the idea that a strong attachment to Family might translate into an ethic of Helping strangers.

A good look at many Human societies would actually support the Opposite conclusion.
In many human societies, if you Ain't Family, you ain't fully "Human".

In the Japanese example, I did include the Cultural basis for not helping a stranger.
(As best I understand it.)

The Minbari would have their own reasons for Whatever they do.

I said Socialistic Meritocracy because that's the way I've understood the few clues JMS has given us to how the Minbari operate.

Darned Vorlon. Never Explains anything.

[Capt.Montoya]

Even if the Minbari were originally modelled after the Japanese I wouldn't expect them to be the same. In fact I think that as the series progressed and JMS fleshed out the Minbari society further it became less and less obvious that they were modelled after Japan.
For example: the "socialistic meritocracy" the Minbari appear to be doesn't have any parallel in Japan that I know of.

Excuse my lack of memory or attention, but I don't remember that the Minbari had a concept like Karma.
Something that was much more apparent was that they had a very strong sense of honor.

[bakana]

Again , we must remember that virtually everyone in Minbari society belongs to a family , a clan and a caste , and if everyone must act in the best interest of all of those (at least theoretically) and at a superior level , in the best interest of the Minbari people , the same social structures that puts at least some degree of pressure on each individual , takes also care of each one in every respect , providing what is perceived as needed

Before following that particular argument any further, how much do you know about the Japanese Culture?

The Japanese value Family above all else. But, they very often will Not provide assistance for strangers.

Not out of indifference. Out of a fear of doing more Harm than good.
Because if you attempt to Help someone and do them harm instead, it damages your Karma and your soul will have to pay.
Doing Nothing, OTOH, does very little damage to the Karma.

This can be illustrated by a trivial example: If you were to visit Japan as a tourist and become Lost, you would probably try to get directions from a native.
Many Japanese will refuse to give directions.

If you Persist in asking, you might get the opposite reaction: The person you ask for directions would, instead of giving them, Lead you by the Hand to your destination.
This isn't Politeness: It's an attempt to avoid the Bad Karma which would result if you got even More Lost trying to follow their directions.


BTW, I have this from two sources:
1. Sensei. I tried to learn Japanese a few years back.
2. I dated a Japanese woman for a number of years.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Natxomann
What I wanted to really say is that the warriors involved in what most other minbari (many other warriors , like Neroon , included , I suspect) considered as an atrocity , believed that the religious caste members were they enemies , and they decided to kill them . However , to maintain the pretense that they were respecting the law of Valen that forbade one Minbari to kill another one , they simply led their victims to the ôdesertö , were they all perished from cold and hunger ("natural causes") , while in a most Minbari fashion , they claimed themselves as innocent of their deaths .

I understand your point, and agree with it mostly, but wanted to add the caveat that the Warrier Caste wasn't trying to convince anyone but other warriers that the deaths of the Religious Caste members wasn't "murder" but rather the inevitable outcome of the religious Caste's "attempt at a coup." As you say, the warriers used the incident to see how far they could push the religious before the Religious Caste fought back.

Remember that the Warrier Caste was using the breaking of the Grey Council as their example of the RC going "too far" to endure using the Ways of Valen. The Warrier Caste was explicitely trying to revert to the old, pre-Valen days, when strength determined class dominace (while claiming that it was the religious Caste who had first broken the Covenant of Valen). Thus, the Law of Valen wasn't something they were afraid to violate - their whole position was that it was meaningless once Valen's prophecies had been fulfilled and the Council broken.

[Natxomann]

Ologarchy/oligocracy... I read again the dictionary and you are right (bangs his head against the wall <idiot , idiot , idiot , idiot...>) .
Another entirely different thing was the killing of religious caste people , and although my first post on the issue perhaps could lead to error on the interpretation of what I wanted to say . You can blame my limited knowledge of english .
What I wanted to really say is that the warriors involved in what most other minbari (many other warriors , like Neroon , included , I suspect) considered as an atrocity , believed that the religious caste members were they enemies , and they decided to kill them . However , to maintain the pretense that they were respecting the law of Valen that forbade one Minbari to kill another one , they simply led their victims to the ôdesertö , were they all perished from cold and hunger ("natural causes") , while in a most Minbari fashion , they claimed themselves as innocent of their deaths .
This twisted argument have a certain level of precedent in Minbari society through the Denn'Sha custom of duelling to death , in which both parties proclaimed that each one of them would be responsible of his own demise (as a sort of suicide , thus not breaking the law of Valen) . This time it was not accepted by the religious caste , and a civil war began (something that I think the warrior caste faction responsible of the atrocity precisely wanted).

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Natxomann
Oligarchy=political "class"
Oligocracy=political system

A nice try, but contrary to the dictionaries:
"olÀiÀgarÀchy n. pl. olÀiÀgarÀchies

Government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families.
Those making up such a government.
A state governed by a few persons. "
DicAmerican Heritage« Dictionary of the English Language

Dictionary.com says of "Oligocracy:" "no entries found."

[/B][/QUOTE] As anyone with a little of memory and common sense can remember , that wasn┤t considered as an adequate excuse , and the result was a civil war , something that the warrior caste supremacists badly wanted . [/B][/QUOTE] I am not sure where the "As anyone with a little of memory and common sense can remember" bit comes from, but there is a long and dishonorable tradition of allowing others to die of imposed hardship while claiming innocence. Usually this isn't for external consumption, but rather internal consumption. One could see the warriers using this justification to satisfy themselves - it wasn't, IMO, an attempt to justify their actions to the religious caste.

[Natxomann]

Ah , another thing . The warriors that drove the Religious caste population of one city to the wastes to let then die of cold and hunger , intended to deliberately kill them , either becuse they considered them as enemies that must be killed , or to provoke the religious caste into beginning a civil war . I'd say that they were succesful in both accounts , although their half-hearted presumption of being innocent of their deaths (that line about "they died of natural causes , we are not guilty of anything , and we have not broken the law of Valen") was not .
In any case , it is a good example of how the Minbari can twist the truth to suit their ideas .

[Natxomann]

Although I happily share your viewpoint on the tendencies of many Minbari towards selfishness and to twist the finer points of truth to suit their viewpoints , prejudices or agendas , I cannot imagine that the Minbari , that are considered by many that know them relatively well as a most caring and compassionate people (at least where other Minbari are involved , with the possible exception of the most militant and fanatic hardcore warriors) , as a people ruthless enough to let other Minbari die simply because they are not useful . Again , we must remember that virtually everyone in Minbari society belongs to a family , a clan and a caste , and if everyone must act in the best interest of all of those (at least theoretically) and at a superior level , in the best interest of the Minbari people , the same social structures that puts at least some degree of pressure on each individual , takes also care of each one in every respect , providing what is perceived as needed (medical care , money , food , home , transportation means...) .
Ah . One last point . When Delenn spoke of how some Minbari were taken care of their needs by others , is when Alissa Beldon asked her about Minbari telepaths ("Legacies") , and she said that telepaths on Minbari society embraced a life of service , aiding others with their abilities , and those that were helped took care of the telepaths' needs , specially those referred to food and cloth . Hmmm , it seems that the Minbari found an effective tactic to limit the influence and power of teeps on their society (at least they weren't dumb enough to force them into a powerful and well organized PsiCorp

[bakana]

that wasn┤t considered as an adequate excuse , and the result was a civil war

True. It wasn't an adequate excuse because it was the Warriors who drove them into the desert in the first place.

But, what I said still stands. We don't know enough about Minbari society to say whether or not a starving person could get help from Anyone or only from his/her own Clan or Family.

There is a bit of evidence for both points of view, but nothing conclusive.

And, it almost certainly varies from Individual to Individual.
I cannot imagine Delenn ignoring Anyone in need of help.
Many of the other Minbari are paragons of Selfishness.
And many Minbari, of both Warrior and Religious Caste, display an annoying tendency to attempt to "Twist" the finer points of "Honor" in ways that will serve their own agenda.

They would blame that fault on Human Contamination, no doubt.

[Natxomann]

Oligarchy=political "class"
Oligocracy=political system

And I much doubt that the Minbari were inclined to let other Minbari die because they are not useful . Given the fact that each Minbari acts (or lack thereof) reflect on his/her family , clan and caste honour , they must face a inmense pressure to find something useful to do , whether they want or not .
And that warrior caste act was not related to the idea of "they are not of our caste , it is not our problem" , but rather to the idea of "they died of natural causes , we had nothing to do with their demise and their blood is not on our hands , so we have not killed another Minbari and we have not violated the law of Valen". As anyone with a little of memory and common sense can remember , that wasn┤t considered as an adequate excuse , and the result was a civil war , something that the warrior caste supremacists badly wanted .

[Dr Maturin]

<<- Oligocracy>>

Oligarchy, I do believe.

[bakana]

The best evidence we have (Some of Delen's statements) are that the Minbari are a socialistic Meritocracy.

I've forgotten the details but, in one episode, someone asks her about how Minbari earn a living.
Delenn's reply is that they don't need money. Whatever they need is supplied because the value of their talent/contribution is recognized and honored.

Evidently there is also no Requirement that anyone contribute, either.

I assume that those who Don't contribute are either given some minimal support or allowed to starve.
I can see the Minbari accepting either option from what we know of them, but I don't recall seeing any evidence that would point to which option they've actually chosen...

Although we do know the Warrier Caste has no qualms about driving the Religious Caste into a desert to die.
"Not Our Caste, Not Our Responsibility" is the obvious attitude in that instance.

[Natxomann]

The council that appears in the movie is not the Grey council (which during the film's timeframe , is slightly occupied rebuilding the Minbari society , economy and infrastructures damaged at the Religious-Warrior castes civil war of 2261) , they are the Ranger council , which is charged with the day to day management and overview of the Anla'Shok operations , organization and training . They are subordinated to the Entil'Zha/Anla'Shok Na (Ranger one) , that at the time is Delenn , and act as her staff , managing all the things that cannot be supervised personally by the Anla'Shok Order's leader .
Respecting the real Ranger hierarchy ... well , no one knows , but given the few pieces of information that JMS has given to us through Babylon 5 , Crusade , and LotR , it could seem that they have no equivalent to the structured rank system used by the human's militaries , but rather that they use some sort of meritocracy combined with some sort of "postcracy" (i.e. , the post that one occupies defines one's rank , responsibilities and authority) . In any case , all of this sounds like some sort of timocracy .
Perhaps the Rangers , as the Minbari rooted organization that they are , make use of the highly structured Minbari idea of society , that clearly defines each one's rank and position without bothering with a strict rank structure , except where high ranking posts or individuals are involved , i.e. , a combination of timocracy with a little touch of benevolent oligocracy at the higher levels of the society , whose members must theoretically reach their positions distinguishing themselves (at least theoretically) in a most timocratic fashion .
Just my 0.02 Euro .
PD: And just to avoid questions:
- Timocracy : system involving rule according to a system of honour(suits well the Minbari , at least in theory).
- Meritocracy: system of government based on rule by ability rather than by wealth or social position .
- Oligocracy: form of government where most political power effectively rests with a small segment of society , typically the most powerful, whether by wealth, military strength, ruthlessness, or political influence (also suits well the Minbari , but this time at a non-theoretical level , but in any case , many political theorists have argued that all societies are inevitably oligarchies no matter the supposed political system).

[bakana]

The whole Point of that thing was to underline the Differences in Human & Minbari thinking.

And there IS precedent. Remember Delenn in her first encounter with the Drakh. Yes, she retreated.

Then, she turned right around and went Back In without waiting for repairs or anything else.
And won.


Later, somone (Garibaldi??) makes the observation that the Minbari appear to be Incapable of Retreat.

They appear to have a compulsion to "have the last word".