The Man in Between

[bakana]

If Byron had gotten taken down in the middle of one of his soliliquies by the Zarg, then it would have been a fan favorite. Possibly Nebula award stuff

Two seasons early.

And the Hugo is the Fan award, not the Nebula.
We've been thru the Award discussion before, though.


BTW, has everyone gone SloMo thru the scene in
Sleeping In Light where one of the B-5 Hugos is sitting on Ivanova's desk?
It's the one awarded in Los Angeles.

[NotKosh]

If Byron had gotten taken down in the middle of one of his soliliquies by the Zarg, then it would have been a fan favorite. Possibly Nebula award stuff

[Capt.Montoya]

It was also a problem with being fixated on an idea, which in paper was pretty good, but didn't come out right.

I think in part it's also my fault, in that my brain was gearing up for the stuff that begins ramping up starting with the next episode, and the Grey 17 thing was something I'd wanted to do for a long time, and there wasn't going to be a chance to do it down the road, if at all, after this season, so I went for it.

(Taken from the Lurker's Guide)
I think that if the Grey 17 Zarg plot had been used in Season 1 or 2 it would be remembered more kindly.
Or maybe if it had been scrapped off entirely for the first four seasons, and the idea rescued to be made a B-story in season 5.
But it was what it was, not horrible, the B-story of Delenn-Marcus-Neroon is great.

[bakana]

No, you are not going to break lose a ship's main steam line with a crowbar!

True, but that wasn't a 36 inch main propulsion steam line. It was about an inch to inch and a half pipe.

The sort used to carry high pressure steam to an environmental heating system.

That 36 inch pipe you're talking about was driving the ship itself. Umpteen tons.

The fact that the rag Garibaldi used as a pot holder would have been useless is another spot whre that whole scenario was just Wrong...

As for the Zarg, that's also one of those things that didn't come off visually as I'd wanted. So overall, I'd agree...of all the season 3 eps, this one is probably the least effective of them all. But one in a season, that ain't too bad....

There are bits in that I like a lot. And some parts of it just fell down dreadfully. That's simply the nature of the beast.

By the time JMS saw the problems, the thing was already in the can.

One of the problems with writing Every Single episode of the season.
And being the Executive producer at the same time.
After a while, the BrainStrain and sleep deprivation starts to affect your judgement.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by WorkerCaste
The reason I have trouble with him breaking/bending it has more to do with the pipe than the steam. When Grumbler talks about 1200 psi or 600 psi systems, can you imagine the thickness of the pipes and fittings?

No, you are not going to break lose a ship's main steam line with a crowbar! The main steam line of the USS Berkely (DDG-15), where I was Main Propulsion Officer, was probably 36" in diameter and had a metal thickness of probably 4 inches. Another 6 inches of the diameter was in the insulation. Garibaldi couldn't have gotten close enough to such a steam pipe without its insulation to spend even 30 seconds trying to wrench it loose.

It was just a bad idea. Even JMS had them. He once commented at a convention the grey 17 was one of the handful of scipts that did not "write themselves."

[bakana]

When Grumbler talks about 1200 psi or 600 psi systems, can you imagine the thickness of the pipes and fittings?

Don't have to imagine it. I've seen that sort of fitting.

I meant that, given a good crowbar or a long piece of junk pipe, I can see him being able to break one of those fittings loose.
The pressure inside the pipe would Help with that.

The resultant burst of steam, though, would give you Instant BBQ Garibaldi.

[WorkerCaste]

Originally posted by bakana
I can believe him Breaking it.

But not surviving the experience.

Actually, though, there WAS a cutoff valve involved.
The Jeremiah character had to turn the Steam ON at the right time...

I believe this was one of the episodes JMS wrote while he was running a high fever from the Flu...

The reason I have trouble with him breaking/bending it has more to do with the pipe than the steam. When Grumbler talks about 1200 psi or 600 psi systems, can you imagine the thickness of the pipes and fittings?

[bakana]

Garibaldi probably wouldn't have been able to break a high pressure pipe

I can believe him Breaking it.

But not surviving the experience.

Actually, though, there WAS a cutoff valve involved.
The Jeremiah character had to turn the Steam ON at the right time...

I believe this was one of the episodes JMS wrote while he was running a high fever from the Flu...

[nanorc]

How many times have we heard this before?

If you have a gun on the wall in act one scene one, then you must have a steamed pipe and a zarg in act three scene two, and if you have a steamed pipe and a zarg in act three scene two, then you must have a gun on the wall in act one scene one.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
I heard the clipboard version, and it was not from a film...it was a story from a guy I knew when his CO took him and some guys on a tour of a sub. It was a "coincidence." Perhaps this is all an urban legend, given the varying stories.

We DO have a former sailor on board. grumbler?

That will work for a pinhole leak in a 1200 psi steam line. Not so sure about 600# steam like a nuke sub uses - it is going to start condensing close to the leak, and it is much less dangerous (because visible much closer to the source). However, as I haven't been a submarine engineer I will believe such a claim.

However, a 1200# or even 600# steam leak through anything as big as the hose Garibaldi had would have killed everyone in the room.

The bullets cooked off by LP steam was the single dumbest thing ever done on B5 from a technical standpoint, and the looks/concept of the Zarg were laugh-out-loud bad, but most of the rest of the episode are fine. It was a better episode than, say, Believers.

[nanorc]

Originally posted by WorkerCaste

c) (If I may be so bold as to assume agreement here) Garibaldi probably wouldn't have been able to break a high pressure pipe

Except that Grey 17 was in a high state of disrepair and neglect.

[WorkerCaste]

Originally posted by bakana
Yes, but the amount of Heat needed to set off Gunpowder would require High Pressure steam.

There is a very direct relationship between the Pressure & Temperature of the gasses in a closed system like that.

Yep, pressure increases heat. So it seems we're pretty much in agreement that...

a) bullets probably wouldn't behave that way even if there was enough heat

b) There probably wasn't enough heat

c) (If I may be so bold as to assume agreement here) Garibaldi probably wouldn't have been able to break a high pressure pipe

I wonder why JMS often uses Gray 17 as an example of an episode that took too long to write, and didn't work the way he hoped!?!

[bakana]

When steam is used for heating, it's generally run at the single digits as far as PSI is concerned. That's about what it looked like coming out of the pipe Garibaldi broke into. If the PSI was higher, the pipe would've been much thicker.

Yes, but the amount of Heat needed to set off Gunpowder would require High Pressure steam.

There is a very direct relationship between the Pressure & Temperature of the gasses in a closed system like that.

And, no, the trick with the broomstick is NOT an "urban legend".
I was IN the Navy when I watched the film. It was part of a course in Damage Control.

Before you can Fix a high pressure leak, you have to Find it.
Preferrably without getting diced & cooked in the process..


BTW, somone at JAG must have seen a similar film.
They actually showed the broomstick technique being used in one of the "on board a Submarine" episodes.
If I remember right, it was High Pressure Air...

[WorkerCaste]

Originally posted by bakana
And steam leaking out at that pressure will Cut a person in Half. Almost instantly.
IOW, the steam itself is a Much better weapon than a Gun.
All Garibaldi would have had to do is use the steam hose like a Sword and he'd have had Zarg Fillets. Well Done.
[snip]
You take a Broom. Very Very slowly, you walk toward the place where you think the leak is at.
Waving the broom through Every Bit of space your Body will pass through.
When the end of the Broom falls on the floor, you've found the leak.
Because the hot steam Cuts right through the broomstick, like a knife through butter.
Only better.

Actually. as depicted, there wasn't that much pressure in the steam. When steam is used for heating, it's generally run at the single digits as far as PSI is concerned. That's about what it looked like coming out of the pipe Garibaldi broke into. If the PSI was higher, the pipe would've been much thicker. Part of the reason you need a broom or stick to find a high pressure leak is because the water vapor is being propelled so far and so fast you can't see it. BTW, you don't really need the heat to make it dangerous. High pressure leaks of any kind can maim and kill, be they steam, water, or even air.

[Dr Maturin]

<<What a coincidence, I don't really give a shit about your opinion either.>>

HEE HAW!