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The Man in Between

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    I was joking about Valen losing the station after the war...
    Sorry man...

    That's what I get for dashing through the office and posting at warp speed.

    Leave a comment:


  • bakana
    replied
    Noone in France is tossing away stuff in the Louvre (or however it is spelled) and old films of wars are kept and reproduced.
    Actually, Librarians, Museum Curators and Archivists complain all the time because such things DO happen.
    Some museums have stuff in their basements that the people in charge don't know exists because no one has been into that section of the basement for Years.
    They occasionally do find stuff that was once worth Millions destroyed by mold, rats, water leakage, etc.
    Usually when looking for some place to store some New "junk".
    No successful museum has the room to display even a fraction of the stuff they own.
    And they are constantly buying More.

    Like those old films. Do you think the water & rat damage to the B5 film was an isolated incident?
    It's not.
    Many of the warehouses movies are stored in have no air conditioning, heat in cold weather or anyone checking to keep out the rats.
    Or monitoring to be sure the roof isn't leaking.

    There was a minor flap a number of yers ago when it was discovered that thousands of Hollywierds oldest films had actually become Explosive Hazards because 50 years of summer heat had changed the chemistry of the old celluloid film stock from Highly Flammable to Explodes If You Drop It .

    Entire warehouses full of film cannisters were very carefully loaded onto barges, towed out into the Pacific and dumped into the ocean.

    The stuff was so dangerous no one wanted to take a chance of trying to salvage any of the movies.
    Last edited by bakana; 08-04-2004, 09:32 PM.

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  • bakana
    replied
    Yes, we know how she gets lost, but how the heck does she get found?
    It Does answer one of the Big questions:
    Why was Sinclair so determined to Go himself?
    We have no idea what was in that note he got from himself.
    Just that he was Happier after he got it.

    As far as trusting the Vorlons, remember that, while on Minbar, Sinclair dealt with Ulkesh.
    Ulkesh apparently tried to arrange for Sakai's "accidental death" at one point becaues Ulkesh believed that she was a Distraction and might keep Sinclair from fulfilling his destiny.
    Kosh evidently blocked Ulkesh.

    The paradox of what the Vorlons knew and didn't know about the whole mess is why so few writers are willing to tackle "Time Travel" stories.
    No matter what you do, there are always those little nit picky things that twist your mind into a knot.

    Of course, there is also the explanation that, There are No Accidents when a Vorlon is around.



    only later in life found Sakai.
    Doesn't really work because the comment "I found her" is in the Babylon 4 computer records from during the War.
    The condition B-4 was in when re-discovered made it pretty clear that at least one battle was fought with the station in the middle.
    By the end of that war, B4 was too badly damaged to be useful,
    so the station was moved to an out of the way solar system and placed on standby.
    Presumably so that scholars could use it for research or something.

    Then, over the years, no one went there any more and the Minbari somehow managed to forget where they'd left it.
    Possibly with a bit of help from the Vorlons and/or Valen.

    We don't even know how many Years that war lasted.
    With both the Vorlons & the Shadows activily and publicly involved, it probably took quite a while.

    Last edited by bakana; 08-04-2004, 09:15 PM.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    I was joking about Valen losing the station after the war...

    We've discussed the Sakai relationship before, but can't remember where. In brief I think that discussion showed that Valen would have fathered children with Minbari women, and only later in life found Sakai. There should be a JMS quote stating that Sakai didn't go through the triluminary conversion and that created a scandal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    Maybe he wasn't clear because he was referring to Babylon 4. I mean, how embarrasing it would be that he lost the station! That explains why he said "I found her" without specifying.
    Didn't Sinclair travel back to the past along with B4, inside it, with Zathras? Or did JMS say he traveled back in another vessel and had to find B4? I've always thought it was option 1.

    I do remember in To Dream in the City, when Marcus is given a note from the past (from Valen) it says "we" in the text, a veiled reference to Sakai. And when Sinclair confronts Kosh about whether or not there's a chance to find Sakai, Kosh replies "Perhaps". But other questions arise, such as - if he DID find Sakai, did she then use the Triluminary to transform herself into a Minbari? Delenn does say that Valen married and had children, who themselves married and had children. Another mystery!

    But I totally agree on the "stay close to the Vorlon" sentence. That one went completely over my head, would've NEVER associated it with Garibaldi's motto.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer"

    Stay close to the Vorlon

    There's a synopsis of the comic "In Valen's name" in the Lurker's Guide. (That's my only source for that story, I never saw the comic.)
    How Sinclair/Valen found Sakai has never been told, the comic only hints (strongly IMO, weakly according to others) that he did.
    Valen's message only says "I found her."
    Maybe he wasn't clear because he was referring to Babylon 4. I mean, how embarrasing it would be that he lost the station! That explains why he said "I found her" without specifying.

    Leave a comment:


  • CRONAN
    replied
    Originally posted by WorkerCaste
    Check out "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn M. Drennan. It explains how Catherine gets "lost" in time. IMO the best B5 book before the three trilogies.
    Well actually I did. However as Catherine's journey through time is only made known to the reader after the fact (to the benifit of a suprise ending), and is entirely not a part of the work (at least to my recollection), it leaves the question of ''how'' wide open. Yes, we know how she gets lost, but how the heck does she get found?

    Yeah, it wasn't that bad. The part I found most interesting was the Marcus thread in the begining. And Sinclair's blatant distrust of the Vorlons. It never occured to me the ''Stay close to the Vorlon'' line didn't mean exactly that.
    Last edited by CRONAN; 08-04-2004, 11:27 AM.

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  • WorkerCaste
    replied
    Originally posted by CRONAN
    I really would like to know how the heck Catherine Sakai was able to navigate her way through time 1000 years into the past. It seems just a little too convenient.
    Check out "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn M. Drennan. It explains how Catherine gets "lost" in time. IMO the best B5 book before the three trilogies.

    Leave a comment:


  • CRONAN
    replied
    I really would like to know how the heck Catherine Sakai was able to navigate her way through time 1000 years into the past. It seems just a little too convenient.

    Leave a comment:


  • bakana
    replied
    As for B4, it was destroyed in the war, so the military security theory holds no water.

    Actually, it wasn't. It was abandoned when the war was over. There is a JMS short story involving the finding of B4, but I haven't read it and so don't remember the details (though someone else here will, I am sure).
    It was in one of the Comic series from DC.

    Sheridan & Delenn re-discover Babylon 4.

    Along with an alien race which helped fight off the Shadows but which has been out of contact for so long the Minbari don't even recognize them. You have to read the story to understand why.

    Delenn's exploration of the station's almost dead computers provides glimpses of the previous Shadow war and Valen's efforts to create an alliance of races to fight them.
    IOW, it wasn't just the Minbari and Vorlons.
    Many of the other races which participated were evidently Wiped Out in the war.

    Oh, that's also the story where the one line appeared which indicates that Sinclair's Personal Reason for going back in the first place paid off.

    I've found her. At long last, I've found her.

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by NotKosh
    Nope, don't buy it. Not one single iota of it. Don't transpose (relatively) irrelevant entertainment with historical documentaries/documents.
    Yet we are talking 1,000 years, not 100 or even 200 years. We have few primary source documents from 1,000 years ago.

    As for B4, it was destroyed in the war, so the military security theory holds no water.
    Actually, it wasn't. It was abandoned when the war was over. There is a JMS short story involving the finding of B4, but I haven't read it and so don't remember the details (though someone else here will, I am sure).

    Now the Valen theory works. The last thing the Minbari would need would be Terrans finding out that their space station will end up 1000 years in the past, being utilized by the Minbari.
    That could be, but i think it more likely that the Grey Council simply lost interest in their remote past and failed to maintain the records inventory properly. Like the Ark in RotLA, all the data was there in a warehouse, but no one could find them in all that mess!

    Leave a comment:


  • NotKosh
    replied
    Originally posted by bakana
    Lost records...



    One could argue that We are somewhat technologically advanced.

    Warner maybe a bit less so.

    But, if they are that careless with properties that Literally cost Millions of Dollars to produce and have the potential to Generate Millions of dollars in Future Additional Revenue, who is to say that other people [Minbari] might not be even Less inclined to protect records they didn't think were worth anything??

    The most likely thinking pattern is:

    We need more storage space. What can we get rid of?

    Oh, here's some 500 year old copies of records from the Shadow War.
    We don't need to keep those.
    The {fill in the blank} has all the copies anyone will ever need.
    We can toss these.

    Meanwhile, over at {fill in the blank}

    We need more storage space. What can we get rid of?
    ...

    Nope, don't buy it. Not one single iota of it. Don't transpose (relatively) irrelevant entertainment with historical documentaries/documents. Noone in France is tossing away stuff in the Louvre (or however it is spelled) and old films of wars are kept and reproduced. We aren't destroying the few photos of Civil War stuff we have, nor films of WWI/WWII. I think War At Sea is out/coming out on DVD soon. Damn, why didn't they burn that stuff yet?

    As for B4, it was destroyed in the war, so the military security theory holds no water.

    And no, the Vorlons didn't tell the Minbari to destroy all records of the Shadows. Lets see, the Shadows come out every 1000 years and foment chaos and destruction. Oh I know what I'll do! Lets get our most efficient /powerful ally to destroy all traces of this, so next time, it will be even harder to get them to fight the Shadows. That doesn't work for the Vorlons or the Minbari leadership.

    Now the Valen theory works. The last thing the Minbari would need would be Terrans finding out that their space station will end up 1000 years in the past, being utilized by the Minbari.

    Leave a comment:


  • Radhil
    replied
    Or if you don't buy the carelessness tack, just look at the bit where their main starbase got blitzed, which I imagine had quite a few computers. Or that there was a war going on and stuff blowing up all over. I imagine historic preservation of all things was kinda low on their list of priorities.

    Leave a comment:


  • bakana
    replied
    Lost records...

    The folks at WB who held custody of the film (we don't keep that stuff, we're not allowed to by contract, they store film, negative, prints, all that stuff) put the negative canisters into storage...and at one point in the intervening 4 years, there had been water damage, and on another occasion, apparently rats had gotten in there and chewed some of the original negatives (and in most cases there weren't positive struck of those takes).

    Take your reaction to the foregoing, put it in front of the Hubble telescope, and you will have mine.

    jms
    One could argue that We are somewhat technologically advanced.

    Warner maybe a bit less so.

    But, if they are that careless with properties that Literally cost Millions of Dollars to produce and have the potential to Generate Millions of dollars in Future Additional Revenue, who is to say that other people [Minbari] might not be even Less inclined to protect records they didn't think were worth anything??

    The most likely thinking pattern is:

    We need more storage space. What can we get rid of?

    Oh, here's some 500 year old copies of records from the Shadow War.
    We don't need to keep those.
    The {fill in the blank} has all the copies anyone will ever need.
    We can toss these.

    Meanwhile, over at {fill in the blank}

    We need more storage space. What can we get rid of?
    ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by NotKosh
    Yeah, I remember that scene. I also remember finding it totally unconceivable and indefensible that a technologically advanced race would lose records. Delenn says it was one of the few surviving records from that time period. BS. I can't imagine the Minbari not having plenty of records from that time period. It may have been 1000 years but records get transferred to less fragile media.
    I suspect that Valen ordered the destruction of the records.

    Also even today it is a criminal offence to photograph military installations. Babylon 4 was used as a war machine.

    Leave a comment:

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