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  • #61
    The medium is different, but the physics are the same.
    No. Change the Medium, change the physics. Changing the Mission can change the physics.
    Changing the physical & Gravitational environment Certainly does.

    A Bulldozer spends a large amount of power overcoming the problems inherent in moving heavy loads around in a Gravitational field.
    In an often Muddy Field. It uses a low RPM, High Torque engine.
    An old Engineering joke: With the right transmission, you can move a freight train with a sewing machine motor.
    Which is true, BTW. Although you might have to wait a couple days to see how Far the train moved...

    A Tugboat is using a very large screw to gain power in a Fluid environment. Most of the Useful work is achieved because of the Inertia possessed by the water. A Lot of power is wasted because fluids don't provide much in the way of "Friction". And that tugboat actually Loses power if the screw turns too Fast because it can create an "air pocket" around the blades.

    The PT boat has it easier. Once it is Moving, the engine just needs to Keep it moving. So, it uses a much smaller screw with a totally different blade pitch. A Tugboat sized screw would actually slow it down. The PT boat's screw is designed to minimize the cavitation (the "Air Pocket" problem) effect at high RPMs.

    Al these differences are because the Tugboat & PT Boat propulsion systems are solving Different sets of Physics problems.

    Aside from the fact that they are both in Water, they are very different.

    A Spacecraft is operating in a Microgravity environment where Inertia is the major controlling factor.

    A Very different environment, Physics wise, than Water. Or Air.

    Oh, and as far as maintenance of high performance engines, I've done a bit of it.

    What you are doing is Replacing the parts that Wore Out in a Very short period of time because of the high Stress placed on them.
    You should see what just a few minutes of a high speed run does to a Torpedo engine.
    You replace a Lot of parts. Most of them without even bothering to examine them because you Know they are trashed.
    And because the Maitenance manual counts it as a Major Safety violation to even Attempt to re-use most of them.
    In some ways it would almost be cheaper to just plug in a new engine.
    But, that doesn't look so good when you write Specifications for them, so the specs require "Frequent Maintenance" instead.

    So, I'll stick to my remarks about desinging an engine to tear itself apart for a short term advantage.

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    • #62
      BTW, I've seen a Tugboat going Backwards in spite of the Engines being All Ahead Forward.

      The ship we were on caught the wind Broadside and the Tug didn't have nearly as much power as a 15 know breeze pushing us in the other direction.

      We almost lost the tug. Pinched it between Us and the pier it was trying to guide us Around.
      It certainly needed a few repairs. I saw (and heard) the tug's main deck "pop". It bent Up several inches in the middle under the strain.
      Also lost the deck rail on the pier side.
      The tug's entire deck crew jumped off and went running down the pier, leaving the guy in the pilot house and the engineer alone on board.

      Another tug that had been standing by finally managed to get in where it could help push us away from the pier.

      Next time we went through there, they used more tugs to Start with.
      Last edited by bakana; 07-29-2004, 07:04 PM.

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      • #63
        Meanwhile, back to Easter Eggs.

        Marcus is from Arisia Colony.

        Two parter:

        1. Name the Source of the name Arisia.

        2. Name two other places where tribute was paid to the same source...

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        • #64
          Arisia... its a convention somewhere....... and i think it came from a comic book... but without cheating with a google search i couldn't tell ya.

          Maybe thats a good hint to help someone get it... or im off and i just sent everyone off on a wild goose chase.
          Milkman
          www.mhoc.net

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          • #65
            Originally posted by bakana
            No. Change the Medium, change the physics. Changing the Mission can change the physics.
            Changing the physical & Gravitational environment Certainly does.
            [...]
            A Tugboat is using a very large screw to gain power in a Fluid environment. Most of the Useful work is achieved because of the Inertia possessed by the water. A Lot of power is wasted because fluids don't provide much in the way of "Friction". And that tugboat actually Loses power if the screw turns too Fast because it can create an "air pocket" around the blades.
            Saying that "the physics are different" works only if you define "physics" as the "physical environment."
            If you define Physics as the science, the scientific principles of physics, the laws and principles are the same.
            The difference would be the lack of friction in the vaccum of space vs. friction from air or water.

            Same physics (Newton's laws of motion, with relativistic corrections if the speed is high enough), different physical environment.

            The friction actually causes loss of energy... useful work is achieved after overcoming this friction.
            Inertia is what keeps a ship moving when you stop applying a force. In the vaccum of space there's no friction to stop it, in water the friction from the water will eventually stop the boat.
            The inertia of the ship (heavy solid) moving matters moe than the inertia of the water (fluid being pushed away). The ship actualy has to overcome the inertia of the water to move. If the water is still inertia would keep it still, if the water is moving in a direction at an angle to the direction of the ship inertia would keep it moving in that direction, and that has to be overcome to displace the water around the ship. Only if the water has a component of motion in the direction of the ship's motion does the water's inertia contribute.
            The boat would waste power if there are air bubbles in the propeller because it doesn't push the water as effectively.
            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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            • #66
              Arisia... its a convention somewhere....... and i think it came from a comic book... but without cheating with a google search i couldn't tell ya.
              That's a good start on the answer to Part 2.


              How about the Source? Part 1 ??

              (The Comic book was a Tribute) Anyone remember Reading the series ??
              Last edited by bakana; 07-30-2004, 03:35 PM.

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              • #67
                change the physics.
                You're being disingenious.

                Change Which of the Laws of Physics are most Important/Applicable in solving that Particular Problem, in that Particular Medium, using those Particular Tools, Etc.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by bakana
                  Meanwhile, back to Easter Eggs.

                  Marcus is from Arisia Colony.

                  Two parter:

                  1. Name the Source of the name Arisia.

                  2. Name two other places where tribute was paid to the same source...
                  Arisia, as I recall, was from the "Lensman" books, which I haven't even had copies of for going on thirty years, so don't ask me exactly what planet it was. It may have been the home planet of the aliens who created the Lens technology, but fon't hold me to that.
                  I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                    Saying that "the physics are different" works only if you define "physics" as the "physical environment."
                    If you define Physics as the science, the scientific principles of physics, the laws and principles are the same.
                    The difference would be the lack of friction in the vaccum of space vs. friction from air or water.

                    Same physics (Newton's laws of motion, with relativistic corrections if the speed is high enough), different physical environment.
                    My point exactly. And remember also that the "space" we are addressing inside these solar systems isn't really a vaccum - it just seems to compared to planetary atmospheres and hydrospheres. Thus, the friction of the medium in space isn't a big consideration except at very high speeds. In air, the speed at which friction is an issue is lower, and for water lower still. For the tugboat, water friction isn't an issue at normal operating speeds. For a PT boat, it is. PT engines are designed to get high instantaneous speeds in order to get the craft to hull planing speed, where friction drops off dramatically.

                    Other than that, Bakana's description of the difference between the tugboat and the PT boat nade my point for me rather nicely. They are, indeed, of different engine and propulsion designs which was my entire point.

                    And I looked a bit through the series and discovered that the "space tugs" used by B5 are, in fact, quite different from the Starfuries (my other point). The tugs have only two booms and two engines.
                    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Arisia, as I recall, was from the "Lensman" books, which I haven't even had copies of for going on thirty years, so don't ask me exactly what planet it was. It may have been the home planet of the aliens who created the Lens technology, but fon't hold me to that.
                      OK. We won't hold you to it, even though you are Right.

                      The Convention Arisia and The Green Lantern were two "Tributes".
                      There is also the Anime, but that was mostly a disappointment for Lensman fans even though it's not bad in it's own right. It just went off on a tangent.




                      Arisia Web Site

                      Arisia 2005 "Through Alien Eyes"
                      January 14-16, 2005 Boston Park Plaza Hotel

                      Writer Guest of Honor - Barbara Hambly - Fantasy and Historical Fiction Author.

                      Artist Guest of Honor WETA FX - New Zealand-based Art and FX house behind the 'Lord of the Rings' movies.

                      Fan Guest of Honor Victor J. Raymond - Two-time former con-chair of Minicon (under the Old Republic).

                      Special Media Guest Harry Knowles - Fan and Movie/TV Critic of www.aintitcoolnews.com
                      Link to article



                      The Lensman series is a serial science fiction space opera

                      . The series is significant for two reasons: firstly, because it is not merely space opera, but 'the' space opera, the one that began the genre; secondly because it was the first example of a set of science fiction novels conceived as a series.

                      It was so innovative and successful at the time of its first publication that it was widely imitated, setting the themes followed by most of the genre since. As a result, to a modern reader it may seem rather corny.
                      The modern reader may also feel that it is filled with sexist and racist stereotypes. However, in fairness it is important to note that Dr. Smith wrote most of his best work between 1928 and 1954 well before the antiracist and feminist movements of the 1960s.
                      He portrays powerful intelligent women, operating in traditional roles, rather than hackneyed maidens in distress.
                      [Note: in the last book of the series, there are 4 Female leads and only One Male]
                      His minorities are not discriminated against, so much as out of sight and out of mind.
                      He describes alien races sympathetically, by the standards of the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, showing that true cameraderie is independent of species, shape and metabolism. Finally, despite its faults, the reader cannot help but notice the evident enthusiasm and enjoyment which Smith had for his subject matter.

                      The complete series of books, in sequence, is:

                      * Triplanetary
                      * First Lensman
                      * Galactic Patrol
                      * Gray Lensman
                      * Second-Stage Lensmen
                      * Children of the Lens

                      Originally the series consisted of the final four novels published between 1937 and 1948 in Astounding magazine. However in 1948, at the suggestion of his book publisher, Smith rewrote his 1934 story Triplanetary, originally published in Amazing magazine, to fit in with the Lensman series. First Lensman was written in 1950 to act as a link between Triplanetary and Galactic Patrol and finally, in the years up to 1954, Smith revised the rest of the series to make it internally consistent with the new additions for book publication.

                      In the DC Comics universe, the Green Lantern Corps bears many parallels to the Lensmen, [like the Character named Arisia, and other names taken directly from the books] although its principal creators deny any connection.

                      The original video game Spacewar was inspired by the Lensman series.

                      There is also a Japanese anime TV series and movie, Lensman. Although this was produced with the knowledge and consent of Smith's estate, they were so displeased with the result that for several years they rejected any other suggestions of adaptation.

                      With Smith's knowledge the parody Backstage Lensman was written by Randall Garrett [best known for the Lord Darcy books] in 1949.
                      Last edited by bakana; 08-01-2004, 07:04 PM.

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                      • #71
                        The War Prayer

                        The episode's Title is itself an Easter Egg.

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                        • #72
                          <<Writer Guest of Honor - Barbara Hambly - Fantasy and Historical Fiction Author.>>

                          The woman who Star Wars fans have no doubt hired Boba Fett to deal with.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                          • #73
                            I need to reread the Lensman series.

                            EE Doc Smith, thank you.

                            And for those of you looking for some good SF to read, find anything you can by H. Beam Piper (Fuzzy series, Paratime series, Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen).
                            Last edited by NotKosh; 08-01-2004, 08:08 PM.
                            "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NotKosh
                              I need to reread the Lensman series.
                              Actually, if you are past your teens you will probably find them more than a tad boring. The technology is a series of inpenetrable shields countered by irresistable beams countered by even-more-impenetrable shields, etc. Purple prose at its worst. I kept almost all the SF books of my youth but not those.

                              And for those of you looking for some good SF to read, find anything you can by H. Beam Piper (Fuzzy series, Paratime series, Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen).
                              An excellent suggestion. I have them all and enjoy them greatly. Absulutely un-PC, but that is very typical of the period (there are no women in HBP's world, only "girls" - but some of the "girls" still get to kick some ass). Piper had one of the more interesting "future histories" and it is a shame he morted himself in his prime, in the mistaken belief he had failed as a writer.
                              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Actually, if you are past your teens you will probably find them more than a tad boring.
                                Depends on whether or not you enjoy a good Space Opera. This WAS the series that pioneered the genre.
                                And it was well enough written that it's still being imitated 60 years later...

                                It's Still better than "Enterprise", for instance...



                                Oh, an interesting tidbit from the web site:

                                EE Smith article

                                Robert Heinlein and Dr. Smith were personal friends. Heinlein reported that E.E. Smith perhaps took his unrealistic heroes from life.
                                He reported that E.E. Smith was a large, blond, athletic, very intelligent, very gallant man, married to a remarkably beautiful, intelligent red-haired woman named MacDougal (thus perhaps the prototypes of 'Kimball Kinnison' and 'Clarissa MacDougal').
                                In one of Heinlein's books, he reports that he began to suspect E.E. Smith might be a sort of superman when he asked Dr. Smith for help in purchasing a car. E.E. Smith tested the car by driving it on a back road at illegally high speeds with their heads pressed tightly against the roof columns to listen for chassis squeaks by bone-conduction -- a process apparently improvised on the spot.
                                Last edited by bakana; 08-02-2004, 03:09 PM.

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